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Shroud of Turin - why does it keep being pushed?

Amethyst

† He hath shed his own blood for my soul
I have never understood the obsession with the Shroud of Turin. Why is it being pushed a lot again lately?

I went on two different "calvary chapel's" websites ( in driving distance from me) and both have a recently posted video promoting a "very interesting" Shroud of Turin discussion between some guy and Tucker Carlson. Not only is Tucker not saved but he is pushing this odd stuff, why are two CC's promoting it?
Am I overreacting?


And also, Joe Rogan was pushing it the other day (doesn't even claim to be a Christian) and some other Hollywood types pushed it on his podcast.

Is this thing supposed to "prove" Jesus' resurrection? I don't get it.
 
My thoughts are a decision tree as follows:

There are only 2 possibilities:

It's real
or
It's a fake.

The more recent studies do place it in the area at the time of Jesus. The more it's studied, the less likely it's a fake. Everything from the type of linen weaving, the pollen grains embedded in the object etc. There was an earlier carbon dating that was done badly, used a section repaired in the Middle Ages, and decided it was done then. Later studies rule that one out and lend credence to it's authenticity.

So if it's real, ie not a fake cooked up in the Middle Ages then we have 2 more possibilities:

It's something the enemy cooked up using fallen angel tech - I discount this option because even with UFO activity etc, the enemy doesn't seem inclined to burn images into cloth creating a photographic negative.

or

It's the real deal

I think it's the real deal because of evidence of movement. You have to go to the techie stuff to look into that, but it's there. And whatever it is, it released a flash of light that burnt the image in, right in the process of starting to move. It used to be dead, it came back to life and it released such a blast of energy that it burnt the image deep into the fibres of the cloth. There is no tech, no dye, no paint that can do that. And the bloodstains are real.

NOW comes the NEXT decision in my decision tree: If it's real, what are we supposed to do with it?

Is there Biblical evidence of worship given to an object that was used by God in the past? In other words what are we supposed to do with this object?

YES there is. Hezekiah destroyed the brass serpent on a pole that by his time had become an object of worship and veneration.

2 Kings 18: 4-7a
4 He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan. 5 He trusted in the Lord God of Israel, so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him. 6 For he held fast to the Lord; he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the Lord had commanded Moses. 7 The Lord was with him; he prospered wherever he went.

Does that mean we should destroy it? NO! It isn't ours to destroy.

But look at Hezekiah's attitude for a clue as to how we should behave with it. It was a real thing, God used it. But it became an idol to many. He didn't venerate it or burn incense to it. And God blessed him.

IF this thing is real, THEN it is an archaeological bit of evidence of the truth of the Scripture, it is evidence of the Resurrection of Christ. It is NOT the Lord. It is evidence of Him perhaps.

Like all archaeological evidence of the Bible, it's useful to share with those who are open to looking at the evidence. For those who brush it off as a fake, no amount of evidence will suffice. Christians or unbelievers. Jesus showed the sign of Jonah by resurrection and appearing for 40 days after, but those who hated him denied the truth.

IF this is real, it is just one more piece of evidence that the Scripture is true, and that is useful for Apologetics- giving an answer of our faith to those who ask. Some skeptics want more than the Bible, they want "proof". As such this might be useful to "prove" to them. Sort of like how Josh McDowell lays out in Evidence that Demands a Verdict Volumes 1 and 2 that I have in my library. PROOF beyond belief for those wanting hard evidence outside the Bible.

FINAL thoughts

Our testimony is about Jesus, and our safest testimony is the Bible and our personal experience. Because science has hiccups. Archaeology is like science, revisions happen.

But for the skeptics, this might end up being useful to open the conversation about a very real person who existed then, named Jesus, whose resurrection may well have burnt the image into the cloth.

If it becomes something to venerate, it's like Nehushtan, and we should turn away from it in our life and our testimony.

It is interesting that the evidence for this thing started to pile up when our tech was able to actually study it properly. Now. When the Rapture is in the nearish future. Kind of like it's another bit of evidence people will ignore or perhaps a few will wake up to the reality that there is a Jesus, His claims to be God were REAL and they may get saved.

As for me, I listened to the evidence, but choose to ignore it as if it was Nehushtan, but if necessary I will grab that evidence to give an answer to a skeptic about Christ.
 
The majority of people I have ever seen push this thing were either a) unbelievers in Jesus' deity or b) Jesus + works for salvation.
Perhaps. I wasn't listening to them. Mondo Gonzales went into it, and interviewed some of the actual scientists who worked on it. I did some digging, looked at articles and left it at that.

I know it's been a subject of controversy, and I think the best approach is Hezekiah's attitude towards Nehushtan which was to tear down things that had become idols.

We don't have that option, but we do have the option to treat it with caution- and if it's useful for hard evidence for some, then by all means use it. Paul used the altar to the unknown god to preach Jesus at one point.

I have respect for archaeology and artifacts when they back up historical evidence proving the Bible right. That can be useful. I really appreciate things like the Joshua stones showing up. Or seals from the Temple period that prove Hezekiah was a real person, or that the Jews have used the Temple mount area for millennia.

But as an object of veneration as it is currently used by the Catholic church or click bait for YouTubers who only see it as another supernatural happening that they can cash in on (thinking of "it's supernatural" by Sid Roth).... then it is a useless distraction.
 
Perhaps. I wasn't listening to them. Mondo Gonzales went into it, and interviewed some of the actual scientists who worked on it. I did some digging, looked at articles and left it at that.

I know it's been a subject of controversy, and I think the best approach is Hezekiah's attitude towards Nehushtan which was to tear down things that had become idols.

We don't have that option, but we do have the option to treat it with caution- and if it's useful for hard evidence for some, then by all means use it. Paul used the altar to the unknown god to preach Jesus at one point.

I have respect for archaeology and artifacts when they back up historical evidence proving the Bible right. That can be useful. I really appreciate things like the Joshua stones showing up. Or seals from the Temple period that prove Hezekiah was a real person, or that the Jews have used the Temple mount area for millennia.

But as an object of veneration as it is currently used by the Catholic church or click bait for YouTubers who only see it as another supernatural happening that they can cash in on (thinking of "it's supernatural" by Sid Roth).... then it is a useless distraction.
I am not good at all with observing/discerning archaeology. Not my gift.
I find things like video tours of Sodom and Gomorrah obviously fascinating and interesting, but I can really only rely on the person who is doing the actual video or article, ya know?

I have to just stick to the word personally. I think it should be sold as an "after thought" rather than having such importance put on it.

That bieng said, I have no clue about the authenticity of it, only the people that are pushing it so hard especially recently.

I appreciate your thoughts, Margery, per usual. :love:
 
have to just stick to the word personally. I think it should be sold as an "after thought" rather than having such importance put on it.
I AGREE with this 100%. Which is why I think we should be like Hezekiah, and treat it as Nehushtan! He bust that sucker up and destroyed it. It WAS the very thing that God used with Moses in the wilderness to heal Israel, but by Hezekiah's time it was an object of veneration.

I don't think it should EVER be the central theme in our defence of the historicity and authenticity of the Bible. Just something to know a bit about, neither venerating it, nor putting it above regular Bible study.

What that grave cloth used to be- whether it wrapped Jesus body or someone else, it is still a grave cloth. It is not the Lord. Nor is it a proven image of the Lord.

What it is, is a grave cloth. It has the image of a body burnt into the fibres by intense light, sort of on the order of Hiroshima and Nagasaki where the shadows of people were etched into the concrete sidewalks by the light of the blast.

Who is that body is up for debate. Because perhaps it IS the enemy who did that- we don't know. Satan can appear as an angel of light, he is a master of deception.

The part that interested me was the evidence of movement at the time of that blast of light, but the enemy could do that too.

So again, I treat it as Nehushtan was treated by Hezekiah- as if it's real, but I'm still not venerating it or planning to use it as proof. If it comes down to it, I may still use it as physical evidence that deserves consideration by a skeptic that brings it up, but it's never going to be the main part of any salvation talk. That place is for the Bible.
 
Why is it being pushed a lot again lately?
And THAT is a very interesting point. You bring up the fact that a lot of unbalanced people like Sid Roth (using poor Sid as my example today) are pushing the Shroud lately. Maybe it's just a fad like blood moons and date setting.

There was a guy called Sideshow Bob in Simpsons- he was a sideshow. Grabbed attention, but a side show. He was pure evil.

Is this a religious sideshow? Maybe. A distraction set out by the enemy.

Just like the recent fervour over the Rapture dates set out by those false teachers that grabbed everyone's attention.

Look what happened- infighting within Christian circles. Some defending the date setters, others trying to get everyone back on a Biblical track. The date setting crowd got mad at the Biblical crowd for raining on their parade and the world watched with derision.

I think the Shroud of Turin might be just such a set up. Even if it's real.

Because that's what Satan did with Nehushtan back in the day. It WAS real. It became an idol. It had to be dealt with and Hezekiah did what needed doing.


So maybe I should call it Side Show Bob, instead of The Shroud or instead of Nehushtan. A distraction aimed at the church to divide the flock. Even if it's real, it's bad news because it gets the eyes off the Bible.

So I'm saying AVOID IT not because it's a fake (it may very well be real) but avoid it because it's a distraction. A Nehushtan, A Side Show.
 
It's real
or
It's a fake.
It's fake. The Bible says so.

John 20:
‭Peter‭ therefore‭ went forth‭‭, and‭ that other‭ disciple‭, and‭ came‭‭ to‭ the sepulchre‭.‭
‭So‭ they ran‭‭ both‭ together‭: and‭ the other‭ disciple‭ did outrun‭‭‭ Peter‭, and‭ came‭‭ first‭ to‭ the sepulchre‭.‭
‭And‭ he stooping down‭‭, ‭and looking in‭, saw‭‭ the linen clothes‭ lying‭‭; yet‭ went he‭‭ not‭ in‭‭.‭
‭Then‭ cometh‭‭ Simon‭ Peter‭ following‭‭ him‭, and‭ went‭‭ into‭ the sepulchre‭, and‭ seeth‭‭ the linen clothes‭ lie‭‭,‭
And‭ the napkin‭, that‭ was‭‭ about‭ his‭ head‭, not‭ lying‭‭ with‭ the linen clothes‭, but‭ wrapped together‭‭ in‭ a place‭ by itself‭‭.‭

You see? A separate cloth around Jesus's head. So not an envelope-like single sheet.

I love God's sense of humor. He debunked the fake shroud 2000 years beforehand.
 
It's fake. The Bible says so.

John 20:
‭Peter‭ therefore‭ went forth‭‭, and‭ that other‭ disciple‭, and‭ came‭‭ to‭ the sepulchre‭.‭
‭So‭ they ran‭‭ both‭ together‭: and‭ the other‭ disciple‭ did outrun‭‭‭ Peter‭, and‭ came‭‭ first‭ to‭ the sepulchre‭.‭
‭And‭ he stooping down‭‭, ‭and looking in‭, saw‭‭ the linen clothes‭ lying‭‭; yet‭ went he‭‭ not‭ in‭‭.‭
‭Then‭ cometh‭‭ Simon‭ Peter‭ following‭‭ him‭, and‭ went‭‭ into‭ the sepulchre‭, and‭ seeth‭‭ the linen clothes‭ lie‭‭,‭
And‭ the napkin‭, that‭ was‭‭ about‭ his‭ head‭, not‭ lying‭‭ with‭ the linen clothes‭, but‭ wrapped together‭‭ in‭ a place‭ by itself‭‭.‭

You see? A separate cloth around Jesus's head. So not an envelope-like single sheet.

I love God's sense of humor. He debunked the fake shroud 2000 years beforehand.


Shall we call it Side Show Bob? :lol:
 
And THAT is a very interesting point. You bring up the fact that a lot of unbalanced people like Sid Roth (using poor Sid as my example today) are pushing the Shroud lately. Maybe it's just a fad like blood moons and date setting.

There was a guy called Sideshow Bob in Simpsons- he was a sideshow. Grabbed attention, but a side show. He was pure evil.

Is this a religious sideshow? Maybe. A distraction set out by the enemy.

Just like the recent fervour over the Rapture dates set out by those false teachers that grabbed everyone's attention.

Look what happened- infighting within Christian circles. Some defending the date setters, others trying to get everyone back on a Biblical track. The date setting crowd got mad at the Biblical crowd for raining on their parade and the world watched with derision.

I think the Shroud of Turin might be just such a set up. Even if it's real.

Because that's what Satan did with Nehushtan back in the day. It WAS real. It became an idol. It had to be dealt with and Hezekiah did what needed doing.


So maybe I should call it Side Show Bob, instead of The Shroud or instead of Nehushtan. A distraction aimed at the church to divide the flock. Even if it's real, it's bad news because it gets the eyes off the Bible.

So I'm saying AVOID IT not because it's a fake (it may very well be real) but avoid it because it's a distraction. A Nehushtan, A Side Show.
poor sideshow Mel, always being left out LOL
 
I've never put much stock into it being real or at least an image of Jesus.
I suppose it's possible that it is an authentic shroud of one of the many who were crucified during that time frame.

If the linen shroud was authentic, it would likely be what Joseph of Arimathea used to cover the body to place in the tomb Matthew 27:59-60, though all four gospels give the account.

59 And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.

John 19:39-40 gives more detail that Nicodemus was also there and helped prepare the body, though likely in haste because of the upcoming sabbath preparation.

39 Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight. 40 So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.

They both would have somewhat cleaned His body before covering Him with the spices and binding it with the linen wrappings.
I don't believe they used the same linen cloth that they covered him in after He was brought down off the cross to wrap Him in with the spices.
Wrappings to me just doesn't sound like placing a single shroud over the still bloodied body.

That and I see Kaatje posted while I was typing about the face covering in John 20:7 which is also a strong evidence against the Shroud of Turin being authentic, IMO.

I could be wrong and like others have stated, we don't need it as proof of the resurrection.
We have the authenticity of scripture and the eye witness accounts of those who saw and interacted Him resurrected.

John 20:28-29
…28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 
Depending on who I am talking to, I have found the shroud can be useful. Knowledge and the ability to discuss rationally and intelligently are critical when people have questions. Each person is unique and has different ways of understanding the world, so tailored witnessing/seed spreading, as needed, possible, and (most importantly) as directed by The Holy Ghost. Questions about the shroud are a giant billboard saying, "OPEN DOOR! OPEN DOOR! OPEN DOOR!" No matter where the person heard about the shroud, no matter the source's perspective, Jesus' Name is getting out to unbelievers.

From a fairly detailed and balanced article about the shroud (with references), albeit Orthodox:

From The Shroud of Turin: A Mystery Across the Ages (Fr Alexey Young), "As Orthodox Christians, do we need the relic of the Lord's Shroud? As far as the fullness of the Faith, "given once and for all to the saints," is concerned, we do not. The image on the Shroud adds nothing doctrinal to what has already been revealed; neither does it take anything away. Had it not survived Apostolic times, as some think, our faith in Christ and His Church, the Ark of Salvation, would be the same. Nor do we seek after signs and wonders to confirm our faith in Christ. On the other hand, the Shroud provides a visual document of something that the Evangelists describe in only a few terse words: "They crucified Him."

"Some years ago Archbishop Antony of Western America and San Francisco (Russian Church Abroad) said, in response to a question about the Shroud, that many Orthodox Christians, including some prominent bishops and clergy, accept the authenticity of the Shroud, "but," he added, "since the Turin relic does not touch upon the dogmatic teachings of the Church, no 'official' view is possible." Even the Roman Catholic Church remains reserved on this matter."

"A precise refutation of forgery charges is provided by a statement released to the press by the American experts at their final meeting:
The scientific consensus is that the image was produced by something which resulted in oxidation, dehydration and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the micro-fibrils of the linen itself. Such change can be duplicated in the laboratory by certain chemical and physical processes .... However, there are no chemical or physical methods which can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological and medical circumstances explain the image adequately...
"We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The bloodstains are composed of hemoglobin and also give positive test for serum albumin.
"The image is an ongoing mystery, and until further chemical studies, perhaps by some scientists in the future, the problems remain unsolved."

"The image on the Shroud vividly tells us, in ways that words often cannot, what unutterable suffering was endured for our sake, and the high price with which cur souls were ransomed from eternal death.
Together with this universal significance which applies to all Christians at all times, the Shroud may also be said to be uniquely relevant to our 20th century, in which science has had such a powerful voice. Some believe that this image was encoded on the fibers of the cloth like a time capsule intended specifically for our materialistic age, when only the tools of modern science could begin to decode or unlock its secrets, when belief in God would be so weak or non-existent that even faith in science would testify to "the things of God."
There is a poster, plastered on walls in the Soviet Union, which shows a smiling astronaut flying through space. The caption reads: "There is no God," For individuals raised under the forced domination of 'scientific-atheism," the inability of scientists to disprove the Shroud does not go unnoticed. And there is reason to believe that the scientific evidence in favor of the Shroud's authenticity has been instrumental in opening doors to faith behind the Iron Curtain. (A report on the Shroud, written by a scientist in the Soviet Union, is said to be circulating there in Samizdat.)
We, too, in the free world, have been greatly influenced by the scientific-materialist outlook. And it seems that now, at a time which many believe to be the 11th hour, the suffering yet serene face looking at us from the Shroud confronts us with the REALITY of Jesus Christ. Can it be that in this age of diminishing faith, when even believers are crying out "Lord, help Thou my unbelief," the Lord in His mercy has condescended to reveal Himself to men in a special way, that seeing they might believe and exclaim with Thomas: "My Lord and my God!""


No link, as Orthodox website.
 
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