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Rapture Ramification

StaceyLovesJesus

Saved by the blood of Jesus Christ Yeshua❣️
Since the year 2000, I’ve watched as multitudes of believers have turned away from believing in the pre-Tribulation Rapture with even more adopting the mindset that it cannot happen anytime soon or even in their lifetime.

Might recent events cause even more Christians to think that they have more time before Jesus intervenes in their world? Or do they reveal that the Rapture is ever so imminent?

Jonathan Brentner

 
Interesting hypothesis. And quite likely accurate. We certainly should not settle into any form of complacency; but rather work more faithfully than ever to serve Christ in whatever way we can, while we still can. The words of Matthew 24:26 are sounding in my head.
 
The Lord has been reminding me of another verse this past week that aligns closely with the quick and surprising start to the Day of the Lord that Paul wrote about:

Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (Matthew 24:44, emphasis added)

Am I misunderstanding or isn't Matt 24 referring to the Tribulation?

I admit, I don't understand how we are supposed to be watchman of the signs, and yet some say we could go on for 10+ more years before the rapture. Why would God tell us to watch for all these signs?

Also, it seems like some verses convey He will come when we aren't expecting Him, like the above verse, but then other verses say "You are not in darkness that it should overtake [surprise] you.." (1 Thess 5:4)

It is honestly all a little confusing for me at the end of the day.
 
Am I misunderstanding or isn't Matt 24 referring to the Tribulation?

I admit, I don't understand how we are supposed to be watchman of the signs, and yet some say we could go on for 10+ more years before the rapture. Why would God tell us to watch for all these signs?

Also, it seems like some verses convey He will come when we aren't expecting Him, like the above verse, but then other verses say "You are not in darkness that it should overtake [surprise] you.." (1 Thess 5:4)

It is honestly all a little confusing for me at the end of the day.
Quick reply, (on my way to the gym, more later)

Mt 24 is the Olivet discourse, and is also in Luke and Mark. Looking at all 3 you can spot some areas that are outside the Tribulation even tho its' to a Jewish audience and primarily towards the Trib.

1Thess 5:4 is a study in contrasts. Paul isn't saying we won't expect him, but the implication is the world at large isn't expecting Him. We are the contrast, we are of the day, so we will NOT be surprised. The world will be surprised, we won't.

There's an awful lot about watchmen stuff, watchmen ministries right now that seems odd to me. Everyone is supposedly an OT type of watchman. I read a recent article on Rapture Ready that had some good points there, I('ll try to look it up later. Sorry for the typos.

while we are to watch for the Lord's return, I don't know about that being a watchman on the wall, who is responsible to report incoming threats. I think that lays a burden on us that isn't intended to be responsible for seeing each sign (that points to the Trib) and know exactly where it goes.

We do that anyway, but that is a general end of the age better get saved now cause the Rapture is coming and after that the Trib kind of watchman warning.

Beyond that the signs are relating to the oncoming Trib and some of the other stuff that might or might not coincide like Ezek 38 and Isaiah 17.
 
I think some who have had the Pre-Trib belief have developed some doubt due to the convergence of signs that point to the Tribulation from the evident world events that are foundational to what is coming in the Tribulation, those doubts are driving some pre Trib believers away from this biblical doctrine, and again I point out that this change in rapture view comes from fear.
When we take our focus off of The coming of The Lord to take us to the place He has prepared for us and set our focus on the world and it's evident falling into appearing more like last days conditions, the devil is paying attention and will use that fear to drive a wedge between our blessed hope and attaining it by sowing doubt with fear and we know fear is not of God.
Who we listen to and who we allow to influence us impact's our faith.
It's expected that the closer to the return of The Lord it will get worse out there.
In John 16:33 Jesus tells us
"In this world you will have tribulation, but take heart I have overcome the world".
It's getting hard, and may get harder before we are called up to meet the Lord in the air.
What made me be realistic to hope to be out of here before it gets too bad, but expect it to get worse if we are still here was analyzing the Greek for Rapture.
Harpazo; to seize, to snatch away, as if from danger.
This made me understand that things may get so bad that it could be dangerous for us if Jesus doesn't snatch us away to save us from coming danger.
Our spiritual health has a lot to do with how we see Bible prophecy and watching it come to life in this present time of the nearing of the End of Age.
It's imperative that we remain connected to like minded believers who will encourage us, and always test the spirits when we hear something that is contrary to what the Bible teaches, sticking to The Word of God, and keeping our mind on the things of God so we can be kept in His Peace and not allow the things in the world distract us from all of the promises of God that are in Christ Jesus that are Yes and Amen. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

Yes, The Tribulation is God's judgement on unbelievers but The Tribulation is specifically for the Jews.
We are not going to be here for the Tribulation that is the time of Jacob's trouble to draw Israel back to God and for them to accept Jesus as their Messiah and call on Him to save them.

God's Word tells us in Revelation 3:10 that Jesus said He will keep us, the faithful Church, from the hour of trial.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 says,
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

If God's Word says it, it's settled.

Two things that are not of God..
Fear and Doubt.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding"
Proverbs 3:6

"I have set the Lord always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken"
Psalm 16:8

"You will keep him in perfect peace, Whose mind is stayed on You, Because he trusts in You."
Isaiah 26:3
 
Quick reply, (on my way to the gym, more later)

Mt 24 is the Olivet discourse, and is also in Luke and Mark. Looking at all 3 you can spot some areas that are outside the Tribulation even tho its' to a Jewish audience and primarily towards the Trib.

1Thess 5:4 is a study in contrasts. Paul isn't saying we won't expect him, but the implication is the world at large isn't expecting Him. We are the contrast, we are of the day, so we will NOT be surprised. The world will be surprised, we won't.

There's an awful lot about watchmen stuff, watchmen ministries right now that seems odd to me. Everyone is supposedly an OT type of watchman. I read a recent article on Rapture Ready that had some good points there, I('ll try to look it up later. Sorry for the typos.

while we are to watch for the Lord's return, I don't know about that being a watchman on the wall, who is responsible to report incoming threats. I think that lays a burden on us that isn't intended to be responsible for seeing each sign (that points to the Trib) and know exactly where it goes.

We do that anyway, but that is a general end of the age better get saved now cause the Rapture is coming and after that the Trib kind of watchman warning.

Beyond that the signs are relating to the oncoming Trib and some of the other stuff that might or might not coincide like Ezek 38 and Isaiah 17.
Go hard Margery , hope you have a good gym sesh
 
I think some who have had the Pre-Trib belief have developed some doubt due to the convergence of signs that point to the Tribulation from the evident world events that are foundational to what is coming in the Tribulation, those doubts are driving some pre Trib believers away from this biblical doctrine, and again I point out that this change in rapture view comes from fear.
When we take our focus off of The coming of The Lord to take us to the place He has prepared for us and set our focus on the world and it's evident falling into appearing more like last days conditions, the devil is paying attention and will use that fear to drive a wedge between our blessed hope and attaining it by sowing doubt with fear and we know fear is not of God.
Who we listen to and who we allow to influence us impact's our faith.
It's expected that the closer to the return of The Lord it will get worse out there.
In John 16:33 Jesus tells us
"In this world you will have tribulation, but take heart I have overcome the world".
It's getting hard, and may get harder before we are called up to meet the Lord in the air.
What made me be realistic to hope to be out of here before it gets too bad, but expect it to get worse if we are still here was analyzing the Greek for Rapture.
Harpazo; to seize, to snatch away, as if from danger.
This made me understand that things may get so bad that it could be dangerous for us if Jesus doesn't snatch us away to save us from coming danger.
Our spiritual health has a lot to do with how we see Bible prophecy and watching it come to life in this present time of the nearing of the End of Age.
It's imperative that we remain connected to like minded believers who will encourage us, and always test the spirits when we hear something that is contrary to what the Bible teaches, sticking to The Word of God, and keeping our mind on the things of God so we can be kept in His Peace and not allow the things in the world distract us from all of the promises of God that are in Christ Jesus that are Yes and Amen. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

Yes, The Tribulation is God's judgement on unbelievers but The Tribulation is specifically for the Jews.
We are not going to be here for the Tribulation that is the time of Jacob's trouble to draw Israel back to God and for them to accept Jesus as their Messiah and call on Him to save them.

God's Word tells us in Revelation 3:10 that Jesus said He will keep us, the faithful Church, from the hour of trial.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 says,
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

If God's Word says it, it's settled.

Two things that are not of God..
Fear and Doubt.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding"
Proverbs 3:6

"I have set the Lord always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken"
Psalm 16:8

"You will keep him in perfect peace, Whose mind is stayed on You, Because he trusts in You."
Isaiah 26:3
I also blame failed date setters as well as a big contributor
 
These are included in watching who we listen to and allow to influence us.
We have The Written Word of God to check to test the spirits and be like the Bereans and compare scripture to see if what we hear is so.
OH YOU SAID IT SISTER!!!! AMEN!!!!

So I'm back. And I can't find the article I was thinking of. Maybe it was one that you posted Rose, you've had quite a few good ones. The gist of it was that being a "watchman on the wall" was an Old Testament thing. It has applications to the church age, sure. More in the line of discernment where we are watching what comes blowing in thru the doors of the church in the lines of bad teaching or bad doctrine. Those are things we watch for.

YES we also watch for the Lord's return in the Rapture to come get us, but that is more of a blessed hope thing, not an expectation that if we weren't paying attention that moment that He comes that we let Him down or fell short of His asking us to watch.

AND we warn people that Jesus is coming soon, better get saved. Judgment and the Tribulation are next after the Rapture.

And that is my summary of that article. Some thoughts.

The type of watching Jesus calls us to, is the excited anticipation of a bride who isn't sure when, but she knows her groom is coming soon. Back to the Jewish wedding- she doesn't know the day or the time of the wedding, nor does her groom. Only HIS father knows for sure.

She knows he's gone to "prepare a place" for them both, she knows it will take up to 2 years before he get's the OK from his father to come get her. She's busy putting together things for the wedding, and when she goes out in the markets she wears a veil to separate her from the world - signifying she's taken already.

As the time gets closer to the day (it can take up to 2 years!!!) she gets more excited. At some point she begins to sleep with her dress handy to pull on because the one warning she gets is a shout to give her a moment to prepare herself before her groom comes and grabs her away.

She and her bridal attendants sleep with lamps trimmed and filled with oil. Ready to light up and go.

She's ready and waiting.

The parable of the 10 virgins didn't mean the Bride. They were the attendants. Some were ready when the Bridegroom appears and takes the Bride. Others didn't have oil (the Holy Spirit) in their lamps (signifying their relationship with God wasn't alive- they needed to go out and find oil- signifying they don't have a relationship with the Lord supplying their oil- this is the ones left behind. The Bride is the church. Jesus is the Bridegroom. The Jewish nation was and is the 10 virgins.

So back to this pressure to be a "watchman on the walls"- it seems a lot of ministries confuse watching with being watchmen. And then the implication of if we are watchmen and we don't watch and warn, then people's blood is on our heads. That was the OT watchman's warning. Be faithful or else. But our faithfulness in watching is somewhat different. (yes we watch for bad theology creeping in, and we warn people to get saved, but beyond taking every opportunity to share the gospel, there are no OT watchman duties that we could fail at if we aren't watching the horizon every moment)

As the Bride, we are simply to be in a happy state of anticipation that someday soon our heavenly Bridegroom will come with a shout, the voice of the archangel and we will be caught up (like that Jewish wedding where the bride is put in a chair, elevated above ground on the arms of the happy groomsmen, carried high up, no foot on the ground anymore as she's carried off to the wedding feast).

So then what about watching for the signs?

Well the Rapture itself is a signless event. Like that bride, we won't know exactly when till we hear that shout, the voice of the archangel, the trumpet of God and we are caught up.

All we can do is be ready. Knowing that this is coming. Not being in a state of denial like a lot of the church. They will still be caught up, they will figure out their eschatology on the way up in delighted wonder. This won't be a time of scolding, but they might lose out on a reward given to those who wait for His appearing.

Are the signs around us for us? Yes and no.

They are the signs of the Tribulation on the horizon. We don't know exactly when. The Rapture is first and that has no signs but if we see signs relating to the Trib, we know the Rapture is sooner. So we see signs of the Trib shaping up and that gives us that joyful feeling that the Rapture is sooner!

Gog Magog, the destruction of Damascus seem to be on the near horizon. Those are not for sure that they happen after the Rapture or after the start of the Trib. They come with question marks. We might see more of them than we do other stuff especially if those events happen alongside the Rapture or just before or just after.

Then WHY THE SIGNS?

Well a lot of them are outlined in the Olivet discourse- those are for the Jews who are in the post Rapture period looking around with dismay wondering what is going on. They will NEED to follow closely and make sure they are paying attention. 2 in particular- that covenant with the AC, and the desolation of the Temple. Because both those signs are time stamps for the Tribulation and both signal to the watching Jews (and gentile believers after the Rapture) that certain things are about to happen, and if you want to save your life you should do certain things.

Fruchtenbaum in his book Footsteps of the Messiah outlines the Olivet discourse signs and puts them in a Jewish context. He points out that the type of wars Jesus describes are world wars. And they herald the beginning of the time leading up to the end.

So the "times of the signs" begin around the time the Jews begin to think of Zion again (1890s) and trickle back into the land. WW1 comes with a bang, and Lord Balfour thanks a Jew who invented some explosive that helped Britain's war effort with the Balfour Declaration that established the right of the Jews to their own land again.

Other signs are inside Revelation where we see odd things like people around the world watch as the 2 Witnesses rise from the dead after 3.5 days and ascend into heaven. That requires cellphone tech and satellites with internet. In the 80s they thought it might be live TV but everyone everywhere sees these events. Suggests cellphone or better.

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. The rise of the AC (which we are specifically told is not for us to see) as he can't get going on that till we are gone.

For us in the Church Age they are interesting and understanding them is good but nothing bad happens if we don't have a perfect understanding of the Seals for example. It helps us avoid the anxiety of thinking we are in the Tribulation period with the Seals being opened because if we know the Seals, we understand that at least 1/4 of humanity will die in the Seals alone.

1 in 4 people dead around us? NOPE, then we aren't in the Trib and the Seals aren't open. (I forget the number off the top, it works out a bit more than 1/4 more like 1/3 but don't quote me.

So knowing the signs can keep us from unnecessary anxiety. Not to mention save us from buying buckets of Tribulation Treats aka Buckets of Doomsday meals. I've seen the contents of what good ol Jim Bakker is selling and if I ate that stuff I sure would feel like I was living in the Tribulation. Maybe the people God chooses to survive the Tribulation as believers will be led to those buckets and it will save their lives. Maybe God arranges some other thing to keep them alive. Knowing how long they have to keep hanging on till Jesus returns at the end of the Trib will be essential for them. So signs for them are life saving.

However I need to pull this in a bit. Hopefully that helps get the signs into a rough and ready perspective.
 
OH YOU SAID IT SISTER!!!! AMEN!!!!

So I'm back. And I can't find the article I was thinking of. Maybe it was one that you posted Rose, you've had quite a few good ones. The gist of it was that being a "watchman on the wall" was an Old Testament thing. It has applications to the church age, sure. More in the line of discernment where we are watching what comes blowing in thru the doors of the church in the lines of bad teaching or bad doctrine. Those are things we watch for.

YES we also watch for the Lord's return in the Rapture to come get us, but that is more of a blessed hope thing, not an expectation that if we weren't paying attention that moment that He comes that we let Him down or fell short of His asking us to watch.

AND we warn people that Jesus is coming soon, better get saved. Judgment and the Tribulation are next after the Rapture.

And that is my summary of that article. Some thoughts.

The type of watching Jesus calls us to, is the excited anticipation of a bride who isn't sure when, but she knows her groom is coming soon. Back to the Jewish wedding- she doesn't know the day or the time of the wedding, nor does her groom. Only HIS father knows for sure.

She knows he's gone to "prepare a place" for them both, she knows it will take up to 2 years before he get's the OK from his father to come get her. She's busy putting together things for the wedding, and when she goes out in the markets she wears a veil to separate her from the world - signifying she's taken already.

As the time gets closer to the day (it can take up to 2 years!!!) she gets more excited. At some point she begins to sleep with her dress handy to pull on because the one warning she gets is a shout to give her a moment to prepare herself before her groom comes and grabs her away.

She and her bridal attendants sleep with lamps trimmed and filled with oil. Ready to light up and go.

She's ready and waiting.

The parable of the 10 virgins didn't mean the Bride. They were the attendants. Some were ready when the Bridegroom appears and takes the Bride. Others didn't have oil (the Holy Spirit) in their lamps (signifying their relationship with God wasn't alive- they needed to go out and find oil- signifying they don't have a relationship with the Lord supplying their oil- this is the ones left behind. The Bride is the church. Jesus is the Bridegroom. The Jewish nation was and is the 10 virgins.

So back to this pressure to be a "watchman on the walls"- it seems a lot of ministries confuse watching with being watchmen. And then the implication of if we are watchmen and we don't watch and warn, then people's blood is on our heads. That was the OT watchman's warning. Be faithful or else. But our faithfulness in watching is somewhat different. (yes we watch for bad theology creeping in, and we warn people to get saved, but beyond taking every opportunity to share the gospel, there are no OT watchman duties that we could fail at if we aren't watching the horizon every moment)

As the Bride, we are simply to be in a happy state of anticipation that someday soon our heavenly Bridegroom will come with a shout, the voice of the archangel and we will be caught up (like that Jewish wedding where the bride is put in a chair, elevated above ground on the arms of the happy groomsmen, carried high up, no foot on the ground anymore as she's carried off to the wedding feast).

So then what about watching for the signs?

Well the Rapture itself is a signless event. Like that bride, we won't know exactly when till we hear that shout, the voice of the archangel, the trumpet of God and we are caught up.

All we can do is be ready. Knowing that this is coming. Not being in a state of denial like a lot of the church. They will still be caught up, they will figure out their eschatology on the way up in delighted wonder. This won't be a time of scolding, but they might lose out on a reward given to those who wait for His appearing.

Are the signs around us for us? Yes and no.

They are the signs of the Tribulation on the horizon. We don't know exactly when. The Rapture is first and that has no signs but if we see signs relating to the Trib, we know the Rapture is sooner. So we see signs of the Trib shaping up and that gives us that joyful feeling that the Rapture is sooner!

Gog Magog, the destruction of Damascus seem to be on the near horizon. Those are not for sure that they happen after the Rapture or after the start of the Trib. They come with question marks. We might see more of them than we do other stuff especially if those events happen alongside the Rapture or just before or just after.

Then WHY THE SIGNS?

Well a lot of them are outlined in the Olivet discourse- those are for the Jews who are in the post Rapture period looking around with dismay wondering what is going on. They will NEED to follow closely and make sure they are paying attention. 2 in particular- that covenant with the AC, and the desolation of the Temple. Because both those signs are time stamps for the Tribulation and both signal to the watching Jews (and gentile believers after the Rapture) that certain things are about to happen, and if you want to save your life you should do certain things.

Fruchtenbaum in his book Footsteps of the Messiah outlines the Olivet discourse signs and puts them in a Jewish context. He points out that the type of wars Jesus describes are world wars. And they herald the beginning of the time leading up to the end.

So the "times of the signs" begin around the time the Jews begin to think of Zion again (1890s) and trickle back into the land. WW1 comes with a bang, and Lord Balfour thanks a Jew who invented some explosive that helped Britain's war effort with the Balfour Declaration that established the right of the Jews to their own land again.

Other signs are inside Revelation where we see odd things like people around the world watch as the 2 Witnesses rise from the dead after 3.5 days and ascend into heaven. That requires cellphone tech and satellites with internet. In the 80s they thought it might be live TV but everyone everywhere sees these events. Suggests cellphone or better.

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. The rise of the AC (which we are specifically told is not for us to see) as he can't get going on that till we are gone.

For us in the Church Age they are interesting and understanding them is good but nothing bad happens if we don't have a perfect understanding of the Seals for example. It helps us avoid the anxiety of thinking we are in the Tribulation period with the Seals being opened because if we know the Seals, we understand that at least 1/4 of humanity will die in the Seals alone.

1 in 4 people dead around us? NOPE, then we aren't in the Trib and the Seals aren't open. (I forget the number off the top, it works out a bit more than 1/4 more like 1/3 but don't quote me.

So knowing the signs can keep us from unnecessary anxiety. Not to mention save us from buying buckets of Tribulation Treats aka Buckets of Doomsday meals. I've seen the contents of what good ol Jim Bakker is selling and if I ate that stuff I sure would feel like I was living in the Tribulation. Maybe the people God chooses to survive the Tribulation as believers will be led to those buckets and it will save their lives. Maybe God arranges some other thing to keep them alive. Knowing how long they have to keep hanging on till Jesus returns at the end of the Trib will be essential for them. So signs for them are life saving.

However I need to pull this in a bit. Hopefully that helps get the signs into a rough and ready perspective.
Yeah i think it was Andy who posted that article from Jack Kelley regarding the watchman on the wall.

You're 100% right about the people who proclaim themselves to be "watchmen"
 
OH YOU SAID IT SISTER!!!! AMEN!!!!

So I'm back. And I can't find the article I was thinking of. Maybe it was one that you posted Rose, you've had quite a few good ones. The gist of it was that being a "watchman on the wall" was an Old Testament thing. It has applications to the church age, sure. More in the line of discernment where we are watching what comes blowing in thru the doors of the church in the lines of bad teaching or bad doctrine. Those are things we watch for.

YES we also watch for the Lord's return in the Rapture to come get us, but that is more of a blessed hope thing, not an expectation that if we weren't paying attention that moment that He comes that we let Him down or fell short of His asking us to watch.

AND we warn people that Jesus is coming soon, better get saved. Judgment and the Tribulation are next after the Rapture.

And that is my summary of that article. Some thoughts.

The type of watching Jesus calls us to, is the excited anticipation of a bride who isn't sure when, but she knows her groom is coming soon. Back to the Jewish wedding- she doesn't know the day or the time of the wedding, nor does her groom. Only HIS father knows for sure.

She knows he's gone to "prepare a place" for them both, she knows it will take up to 2 years before he get's the OK from his father to come get her. She's busy putting together things for the wedding, and when she goes out in the markets she wears a veil to separate her from the world - signifying she's taken already.

As the time gets closer to the day (it can take up to 2 years!!!) she gets more excited. At some point she begins to sleep with her dress handy to pull on because the one warning she gets is a shout to give her a moment to prepare herself before her groom comes and grabs her away.

She and her bridal attendants sleep with lamps trimmed and filled with oil. Ready to light up and go.

She's ready and waiting.

The parable of the 10 virgins didn't mean the Bride. They were the attendants. Some were ready when the Bridegroom appears and takes the Bride. Others didn't have oil (the Holy Spirit) in their lamps (signifying their relationship with God wasn't alive- they needed to go out and find oil- signifying they don't have a relationship with the Lord supplying their oil- this is the ones left behind. The Bride is the church. Jesus is the Bridegroom. The Jewish nation was and is the 10 virgins.

So back to this pressure to be a "watchman on the walls"- it seems a lot of ministries confuse watching with being watchmen. And then the implication of if we are watchmen and we don't watch and warn, then people's blood is on our heads. That was the OT watchman's warning. Be faithful or else. But our faithfulness in watching is somewhat different. (yes we watch for bad theology creeping in, and we warn people to get saved, but beyond taking every opportunity to share the gospel, there are no OT watchman duties that we could fail at if we aren't watching the horizon every moment)

As the Bride, we are simply to be in a happy state of anticipation that someday soon our heavenly Bridegroom will come with a shout, the voice of the archangel and we will be caught up (like that Jewish wedding where the bride is put in a chair, elevated above ground on the arms of the happy groomsmen, carried high up, no foot on the ground anymore as she's carried off to the wedding feast).

So then what about watching for the signs?

Well the Rapture itself is a signless event. Like that bride, we won't know exactly when till we hear that shout, the voice of the archangel, the trumpet of God and we are caught up.

All we can do is be ready. Knowing that this is coming. Not being in a state of denial like a lot of the church. They will still be caught up, they will figure out their eschatology on the way up in delighted wonder. This won't be a time of scolding, but they might lose out on a reward given to those who wait for His appearing.

Are the signs around us for us? Yes and no.

They are the signs of the Tribulation on the horizon. We don't know exactly when. The Rapture is first and that has no signs but if we see signs relating to the Trib, we know the Rapture is sooner. So we see signs of the Trib shaping up and that gives us that joyful feeling that the Rapture is sooner!

Gog Magog, the destruction of Damascus seem to be on the near horizon. Those are not for sure that they happen after the Rapture or after the start of the Trib. They come with question marks. We might see more of them than we do other stuff especially if those events happen alongside the Rapture or just before or just after.

Then WHY THE SIGNS?

Well a lot of them are outlined in the Olivet discourse- those are for the Jews who are in the post Rapture period looking around with dismay wondering what is going on. They will NEED to follow closely and make sure they are paying attention. 2 in particular- that covenant with the AC, and the desolation of the Temple. Because both those signs are time stamps for the Tribulation and both signal to the watching Jews (and gentile believers after the Rapture) that certain things are about to happen, and if you want to save your life you should do certain things.

Fruchtenbaum in his book Footsteps of the Messiah outlines the Olivet discourse signs and puts them in a Jewish context. He points out that the type of wars Jesus describes are world wars. And they herald the beginning of the time leading up to the end.

So the "times of the signs" begin around the time the Jews begin to think of Zion again (1890s) and trickle back into the land. WW1 comes with a bang, and Lord Balfour thanks a Jew who invented some explosive that helped Britain's war effort with the Balfour Declaration that established the right of the Jews to their own land again.

Other signs are inside Revelation where we see odd things like people around the world watch as the 2 Witnesses rise from the dead after 3.5 days and ascend into heaven. That requires cellphone tech and satellites with internet. In the 80s they thought it might be live TV but everyone everywhere sees these events. Suggests cellphone or better.

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. The rise of the AC (which we are specifically told is not for us to see) as he can't get going on that till we are gone.

For us in the Church Age they are interesting and understanding them is good but nothing bad happens if we don't have a perfect understanding of the Seals for example. It helps us avoid the anxiety of thinking we are in the Tribulation period with the Seals being opened because if we know the Seals, we understand that at least 1/4 of humanity will die in the Seals alone.

1 in 4 people dead around us? NOPE, then we aren't in the Trib and the Seals aren't open. (I forget the number off the top, it works out a bit more than 1/4 more like 1/3 but don't quote me.

So knowing the signs can keep us from unnecessary anxiety. Not to mention save us from buying buckets of Tribulation Treats aka Buckets of Doomsday meals. I've seen the contents of what good ol Jim Bakker is selling and if I ate that stuff I sure would feel like I was living in the Tribulation. Maybe the people God chooses to survive the Tribulation as believers will be led to those buckets and it will save their lives. Maybe God arranges some other thing to keep them alive. Knowing how long they have to keep hanging on till Jesus returns at the end of the Trib will be essential for them. So signs for them are life saving.

However I need to pull this in a bit. Hopefully that helps get the signs into a rough and ready perspective.
Great explanation and so encouraging. Thank you Margery 😊
I reflect on the "typology" for us in the Church waiting for the Rapture with The Early Church and their anxiety over thinking that the Tribulation must have begun because of misunderstanding the Rapture and Paul goes over it again to reassure the Thessalonians by reminding them.....

1 "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
 
Yeah i think it was Andy who posted that article from Jack Kelley regarding the watchman on the wall.

You're 100% right about the people who proclaim themselves to be "watchmen"
THANK YOU! yes it is.

Here is that article THE WATCHMAN

and looking at it, I must have been reading it offline or I'd have thanked @Andy C for posting a wonderful Jack Kelley article.

I gotta go read it again, I remember thinking it was good and wanting to get back to it in depth.
 
I try to keep in mind that some of those in the Prophecy circle may have their own theories or understanding of prophecy and may be off on some of it, but they're still our brothers in Christ. I may not agree with some of them on something, but I love them as my brothers in Christ, and I won't murmur about them to other believers. That is divisive.
It's been really grieving me to see how much division has been building recently amongst the prophecy circles with believers attacking Pastors and other believers over the recent election. I see it in the Livestreams I watch and see the chat comments and it's disheartening what I read.
Yes, we must be discerning and stick with the Bible teachings, but none of us are without flaws, even our favorite prophecy teachers, as we All fall short of God's Glory.
We need to be praying for the Church to maintain being with the mind of Christ and love one another in spite of differences, because the adversary is increasingly trying to take down the church and is doing it through division and doubt because he knows his time is short.
 
I had to quickly come back and clarify something. In NO WAY am I criticizing any ministry that calls itself "Watchman" or talks about watching or being "watchmen" or women.

Amir Tsarfati and Watchman River are 2 wonderful brothers in the Lord, leaders who have a very very obvious calling of God and anointed ministry. They are fulfilling the New Testament duty of preaching the gospel and the soon return of the Lord as they point out the signs that are showing up signalling the onset of the Tribulation, the nearness of other prophetic promises and the lateness of the hour.

They use the term Watchman a lot. Sometimes it's helpful to remember what that should mean to a Church age believer. It's a bride waiting with happy anticipation for her wedding day.

I'm referring to the almost generic label of Watchman or Watchwoman to anyone who is watching for the Lord's Return where the Old Testament warning is quoted a lot about the blood being upon the watchman if they don't do their duty.

I hear it a lot, like it's become a New Testament office.

When I read thru Jack Kelley's article The Watchman linked here: THE WATCHMAN it clarified for me why sometimes watching for the Lord is as fun as a bride anticipating her wedding and sometimes it's a dreadful burden.

The idea sometimes becomes that if you turn aside to daily life, avoid the news for a season and focus on the bible and family that somehow you are avoiding your "duty" as a "watchman".

Watching for the Lords Return is as simple as taking joy in the fact that He keeps His promises, He is coming back, and that day is quickly approaching.

The news cycle continues on whether you pay attention or not. Reading the news, listening to the litany of disasters doesn't make us watchmen, it makes us depressed at times.

It's ok to take breaks. Your duty is in the Bible, in your relationship with the Lord, prayer, Bible and doing what He called you.

The more the term Watchman gets used, the more easily the Old Testament watchman's warning that Ezekiel had (Ezek 33:7-9) is misapplied to us today.

I'm going to quote from Jack's article and I encourage you to read it all for context. I'm going to bold the last part I include here for emphasis, but the article goes on from this part I've quoted.

"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself. (Ezekiel 33:7-9

Ezekiel 33:7-9
tells of the Lord appointing Ezekiel to be a watchman over Israel, which at the time consisted only of the Southern Kingdom. (This confirmed His earlier statement to that effect in Ezekiel 3:17). God had also said the prophets He sent to the Northern kingdom earlier were also His watchmen (Hosea 9:8). Like Ezekiel, these watchmen were also prophets God had appointed to speak to Israel on His behalf.

These are the only two places where God speaks of appointing a watchman to warn the people of the consequences of their sinfulness, and both are in the Old Testament and were intended for Israel. And only Ezekiel was held personally accountable for conveying the warning.

There is only one mention of a watchman in the New Testament (John 10:3) and then only in a few English translations. The KJV calls him a porter. Most translations use gate-keeper or doorkeeper. His job was to open the gate of the community sheep pen so the shepherds could retrieve their sheep. He was not a lookout, or “watchman on the wall.”

A porter is also mentioned in Mark 13:34. Here the Lord was telling believers who will be on Earth at the time of the Second Coming to be on guard and be alert, like a porter who stands at the door and awaits His master’s return. The doorkeeper/porter was not commanded to warn the people of impending events in either of these cases.

In summary, I believe Ezekiel 33:7-9 was intended specifically for Ezekiel as God’s prophet to Israel. It was not meant to have a general application in the Church today.



But that doesn’t mean God has left the Church in the dark where His plan is concerned. In fact, Paul specifically said that we should not be in the dark concerning the things to come (1 Thes 5:4). You see, the church has something the people of Ezekiel’s day didn’t have. We have the completed Word of God and it contains everything we need in order to know where we are on God’s timeline.



Therefore, although I periodically draw comparisons between current events and Bible prophecy, I don’t see myself or anyone else alive today as a God-appointed “watchman on the wall.” As the Church, we don’t need specially appointed prophets/watchmen to warn us of what’s coming. Each of us is supposed to become our own watchman by studying His word. In this way, we come out of the darkness (spiritual ignorance) and into the light (spiritual awareness). We will not be taken by surprise but will see the signs of the coming Day of the Lord for what they are and will encourage one another because we are not appointed to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ
(1 Thes. 5:8-11).
"


I really appreciate how Jack brings this out. We have the Word of God, it contains everything we need in order to know where we are on God's timeline. We will see the signs of the coming Day of the Lord. We will encourage each other because we are not appointed to suffer wrath but to receive salvation thru Jesus.

To me this takes the burden away from watching for the signs. It's back to the joyful bride looking forward to her wedding as she watches and gets ready for her bridegroom.
 
I was brought up in an amillennial denomination believing and watching for Jesus to come back at any moment (Second Coming), so when I learned about the pre-Trib Rapture and got interested in eschatology, it's been very easy for me to remain confident that the Rapture can happen at any moment. Doctrine of Imminent Return. Both groups of Christians are watching and waiting with great anticipation and expectation for Jesus Christ to return imminently. That means, it's possible any second now.

My Maternal Grandmother used to tell me, "Wouldn't it be a shame if Jesus came back right now and found [whatever transgression(s) I had committed or omitted]?!!!"

As an adult, I understand that Jesus sees and knows everything, He died a horrible death and paid the penalty for every sin I have committed, am committing, and ever will commit, He did everything necessary for my Salvation and I can't do anything to "help," and He made me the way I am. So I'm not concerned about what I'm doing or not doing when He comes back. I'd rather I was about The Lord's work when He does return, but I'm chiefest among sinners and a human being, so there's every possibility He'll return when I'm sinning, using the bathroom, etc.
 
This article by Terry James and Todd has a similar tone as the OP:


"But, again, there is now a growing sense expressed by many that maybe the Rapture will not occur for quite some time, based on the political turn of events.

This is foolish, and we implore those who think this way to reconsider. The Rapture is right at the door. And the very attitude we’re getting from those who miscalculate where we are in God’s timing for prophetic fulfillment is itself prophetic fulfillment. It is fulfillment given in the tremendous forewarning by our Lord, Himself. Don’t miss it. It is profound at this late moment of this closing Age of Grace"
________



I could see how some jaded Christians could read that article and think, they have no idea whether its that close, they're just looking for a cash grab and are scared people won't donate if they think the rapture is farther away bc of Trump's victory.

I don't believe that to be the heart of either Terry or Todd at all but I could see some could get that perception.
 
This article by Terry James and Todd has a similar tone as the OP:


"But, again, there is now a growing sense expressed by many that maybe the Rapture will not occur for quite some time, based on the political turn of events.

This is foolish, and we implore those who think this way to reconsider. The Rapture is right at the door. And the very attitude we’re getting from those who miscalculate where we are in God’s timing for prophetic fulfillment is itself prophetic fulfillment. It is fulfillment given in the tremendous forewarning by our Lord, Himself. Don’t miss it. It is profound at this late moment of this closing Age of Grace"
________



I could see how come jaded Christians could read that article and think, they have no idea whether its that close, they're just looking for a cash grab and are scared people won't donate if they think the rapture is farther away bc of Trump's victory.

I don't believe that to be the heart of either Terry or Todd at all but I could see some could get that perception.
I think Todd and Terry are expressing the truth.

It's Laodicea, this is a church age characterized by self delusion, and Jesus on the outside of that church knocking to be let in. His promise is to the individuals inside Laodicea who do let Him in.

Those who want to think that the good times are back again because Trump is elected have to remember the speed at which things took place under Trump especially that final year once the "Peace Plan" was out and Covid was gaining traction. Everything was set up and in place for the wrecking ball Biden who followed, who then presided over the speed of the last 4 years especially the last year and a bit since Israel was invaded.

There's a little bit of a pattern there. Things go in a labour pain type cycle. Increasing in frequency and intensity. Spikes followed by respite. Only the respite cycles are growing smaller and less pronounced.

God's timetable may feel like it speeds up and slows down but in fact it's like the labour pains- the contractions get closer, the intensity gets stronger as things progress.

The time approaches (and we DO see the day approaching) even though we can't predict with precision exactly when. God knows that data point, we don't.

For a good chunk of the church they don't want to know how close we are to the Rapture.

They have reasons they want to deny the Rapture, or enjoy the thought of a mid trib rescue after "proving" themselves to the Lord (works). Or it's just too scary to think that Jesus might be face to face with us in the next little while. Whatever makes them buy into the "anything but dispensationalism" mind set.

As for me, I think things will continue to "speed up" from our point of view even though they continue at God's steady measured pace. Until we are Raptured.
 
Since the year 2000, I’ve watched as multitudes of believers have turned away from believing in the pre-Tribulation Rapture with even more adopting the mindset that it cannot happen anytime soon or even in their lifetime.

Might recent events cause even more Christians to think that they have more time before Jesus intervenes in their world? Or do they reveal that the Rapture is ever so imminent?

Jonathan Brentner


I think current events would tend to increase a pre-Trib Christian's belief in the imminency of Christ's return, simply because we are watching prophecy unfold in front of our very eyes.

Amillennial Christians I know also believe imminency and long for Christ's return more strongly because they see the geometric increase in evil. "If Jesus doesn't come back soon, He's going to have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah" is a common expression of anticipation, expectancy, and hope among both pre-Trib and amillennial (Conservative) Christians.

Unfortunately, not among liberal Christians I know, whose churches/denominations have unBiblical practices and teaching/doctrine regarding homosexuality, transgenderism, etc.
 
theI also blame failed date setters as well as a big contributor
The one thing I can say about the date setting issue is that it has seemed to increase, no? I know there was the big deal about rapture made about 1988. I am aware that the Seventh Day Adventist church starting because of second coming claims that did not pan out. So rapturemania has been here before. But now that we have the internet...it is so much louder I believe because we have so much more access.


THE GRAMMAR OF SOCIALOGY
I tend to view things more socialogically than share emphasis placed on verses or views of rapture timing. I used the term "social artifact" quite a bit because it seems to me that events sociologically, when viewed from a 30,000 foot perspective (rather than a 3 foot distance away) can tend to be a part of a greater narrative story. And that wider angle view of social artifacts would tell a story too. One I believe that can have a bit more accuracy because it is a collection of data viewed thematically in our moment to perhaps inform upon the greater expanse in meaning concerning our moment.

So like I would look at the increase of rapture claims socially due to the internet. But not really settle on that as an answer. But rather the fact that we have the internet and in that rapture claims increase (combined) seems to suggest (together) that the "awareness level" of rapture claims will be more pronounced now in the social infrustructure of our day. AND THAT collectively is a social artifact.

Not the common understanding that of course if we have internet we will have more awareness...a somewhat no brainer. But that because of both...its net effect is greater. And seeing this, would make it greater than times that branch Christianity off into new denominations or heightened moments in social history like 1988 frenzy. A while back a read John Macarthur's "Second Coming" book. And in that book he points to the 1988 phenomenon as to why we can't know. And that any amount of Frenzie = likely a time the rapture won't occur. On its face, I agree with that take. But the book goes on to suggest that because of 1988, evangelicalism has kind of stayed away from claims.


A BRIEF CASE STUDY
This book was written in 1999 and I am sure had updates. But at that time it would seem that the Frenzie over near rapture disclosure was proven to be a risky business. I read an article about what "generation" means biblically (I read this like 7 years ago). One of the helpful findings of how the bible uses "generation" is God's narrative of the Hebrews coming out of Egypt in the 4th generation (which would make generation there 100 years). The 1988 theory was based on Western marketing generations of about 40 years. In the book Second Coming Macarthur says therefore that we should not be looking for signs or indicators because 1988 already proved that we should not.

But the interesting thing on that is that Macarthur is comfortable dismissing what might later for us be indicators of insights because American sensationalists go by Western marketing generation numbers. And I think the obvious come back to that is: Why would we want to affirm how the bible, Providence, and God's touch upon story in His last days of His age of grace works or does not work based on temporal man's limited scope of marketing "generation?" LIke why is that a good conclusion to come to like that?

If the bible uses 100 years in places, perhaps Israel is that generation up until 2048, biblically. Why is that not something we could say while also saying "Lets not jump to conclusions all over the place?" Yet the Christian academic world has seemed to become timid because of its own poor use of Western marketing "generation" concept. And unfortunately, Macarthur gladly placing confirmation for them to do so. I believe Macarthur means well to settle hysteria. I would say we live in a day and time where hysteria is kind of off the charts. But I believe that the increase hysteria at the megaphone level of internet noise levels reverberating is actually to some degree a social artifact likely marketing an age its for.

I do have a bias toward Israel being "that generation." I believe I could be wrong...but we won't know until 2049 (some 25 years from now). So if all is said and done and we all part ways years from now and 2048 comes and things are still going on, I guess maybe member? Lol. But I also have another bias. Another hysteria moment.


MY OWN FLAVOR OF HYSTERIA
I lean toward September 23, 2017 as being the Revelation 12 sign. For several reasons. But I looked into so many angles on it. And one huge indicator for me is not so much if Rev 12 could be constellational (which I believe it could be) but that such a high profile and well respected ministry as Answers in Genesis would affirm to completely say that moment was not the Rev 12 sign. And the arguments they gave though were not even well researched. And in part, their argument was something like: Because Youtube can't be correct. Some really weak arguments. Like why would we go out of our way to use weak arguments? Why not have the same level of research on that issue as we might in other deep dives that so many have found helpful over the years concerning Answers in Genesis? It would seem because it underscores a theme that seems to be becoming more apparent over the years. That Big Eva (evangelicalism) seems to be the "thing that is" in an historical moment where the "thing that is not" might be trumping it.

Answers in Genesis's answer really left an impression on me. Because they were basically being defensive against Youtube. Which is understandable. But it's not really professional. And certainly not scholarly calibur. And this introduced to me back then in 2017 that the church (Big Eva) might be trending in its official sense to be somewhat officiatties of what means what today. And at the time, this awareness kind of shocked me. Because I would have thought God to be using the church to see signs. Not potentially arm wrestle them to the ground for leverage on remaining the authority. I admit seeing things in this way is somewhat Joker-esque like. So I'm not saying no churches have sobriety, but just that it does seem somewhat thematic that the discernment ministry one's might be more earmarked to absolutely not be that as those with child like hearts might just, see otherwise. And that does seem to be somewhat of an increasing symptom of our day I reckon.


BIG VS LITTLE EVA
That there might be some sense in where commercialized Christianity might be a mirror reflection of a 1st century syndrome echo, is not eactactly a comfortable thought...but may be something considerable. This potential, I believe, is one reason I try to keep open to even the fringe views. Because it would not seem to be coming from Big Eva. Ironically, Answers in Genesis would consider itself a force in contrast to Big Eva (Christianity Today, and the whole woke culture in much of the Southern Baptist Convention). But it would seem we are alive at a time when the celebrity pastor stands in danger of becoming Big Eva herself too I imagine (as might be the case on some fronts as perhaps with Answers in Genesis).

So when I look at it as a whole, there does seem to be themes of God moving providentially in our day while Big Eva (in her various technicolor raincoat variations) insists on other conclusions. Well this is just something I have noticed. But also need to be in great check over myself. Because cynicism over observations there will likely end us up in a similar quagmire. Instead, it would seem "there by the grace of God go any of us." But that there is plenty to look at and consider how we might consider themes upon our age.

. . . . .


EPILOGUE
You guys, I was no a phone call yesterday with a friend from my former reformed days. He is still at Macarthur's church. Actually works there. And pretty much a best friend. We differ on different theological pages, but I was amazed to hear some of the themes he expressed to me in the sense of noticing himself an evident theme of God's character likely being more at play in end times than common day exegesis might permit. Which was amazing to hear from him because that is kind of a whole lot more my montra, and never was his. But it seems in his own way at his own pace and in his own time he himself is also recognizing a potential helpful filter by which to apply to end time theater. In some ways he was saying it better than I could. Now I'm jealous...lol. But in a godly way. Blessings. PS @StaceyLovesJesus -- I think the thread Title is perfect :)
 
Date setting has gone off the charts nuts. I agree.

Some of it is the thing you call sociology, and I'd call amplification- it's like YouTube is an echo chamber- it amplifies stuff that people click on, so the YouTubers create what people click on to make money, get views, and then YT pushes it to more people.

A vicious circle where a lie that sounds attractive, gets retold over and over and those who show interest in the lie get it suggested in their YT feed - or any other social media.

The old saying that is often attributed to Joseph Goebbels the Nazi is "Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth!" It's tailor made for Satanic lies to gain traction in the social media age we live in.

Truth is also out waving for attention in the social media because people don't trust the Mainstream News media any more. One of Satan's tactics was to destroy good unbiased media, create distrust, use that media to become propaganda - social engineering to drive people to find their own sources of truth.

In the marketplace of ideas that is social media from YT, Twitter, Telegram, Facebook etc people will gravitate to what sounds right to them. Their own echo chambers. Where people agree with them and reinforce their version of "truth".

And that's where Satan's second tactic comes into play. The echo chamber effect. Where a number of groups find their own spaces and refuse to listen to any competing voices.

This shatters a society faster than Whoopi Goldberg is able to promote Kamala Harris on the View. People are grouped by race, gender, politics, religion and what used to be a melting pot, with the concept of voting for the best person for the job and accepting the results of that vote has shattered into the kind of political landscape it is today.

You might as well be walking on broken glass and have bombs thrown your way than try and find common ground. Yet Trump is doing just that. Uniting races, economic stratas, religions as AMERICANS. All while Harris, Biden and Hilary Clinton referred to everyone else as deplorables, garbage etc.

And it's hit the church too. The war on truth.
 
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