Psalm 58:3 wicked right from the womb

[Anastacia]

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. KJV

Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. NIV

The wicked are estranged from the womb;
These who speak lies go astray from birth. NASB

This verse intrigues me and stumps me a bit. Is it saying anything beyond the fact that we are all born with sin?
Is it referring to all unsaved, or those He knows will never repent?
Or... I'm stretching a bit... could this even refer to sociopaths/psychopaths?

Thanks for anyone's thoughts and wisdom!

 

[Armor of Light]

Good question, maybe Adrian can help, he is good with translating original Hebrew or Greek text.

 

[Hol]

My understanding is that it's each human born from earthly parents.

Some Calvinists assume it only applies to the unchosen, including infants.

 

[Quantrill]

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. KJV

Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. NIV

The wicked are estranged from the womb;
These who speak lies go astray from birth. NASB

This verse intrigues me and stumps me a bit. Is it saying anything beyond the fact that we are all born with sin?
Is it referring to all unsaved, or those He knows will never repent?
Or... I'm stretching a bit... could this even refer to sociopaths/psychopaths?

Thanks for anyone's thoughts and wisdom!

It is referring to the 'wicked' in contrast to the 'righteous'.

(Ps. 58:3) "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

(Ps. 58:6) "Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD."

(Ps. 58:10) " The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

The Psalmist is not saying here all are born in sin, though that is true. The Psalmist is saying there is a difference in those born. That difference being some are the 'wicked' and some are the 'righteous'.

God knows who the wicked and the righteous are before they are even born. Just because all are born in sin due to the fall, doesn't mean all are the wicked. It just means the righteous are born in sin and are lost. But they are not the wicked. And as I have said in another thread, the wicked are not lost. Only the righteous were ever lost.

Quantrill

 

[Anastacia]

It is referring to the 'wicked' in contrast to the 'righteous'.

(Ps. 58:3) "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

(Ps. 58:6) "Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD."

(Ps. 58:10) " The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

The Psalmist is not saying here all are born in sin, though that is true. The Psalmist is saying there is a difference in those born. That difference being some are the 'wicked' and some are the 'righteous'.

God knows who the wicked and the righteous are before they are even born. Just because all are born in sin due to the fall, doesn't mean all are the wicked. It just means the righteous are born in sin and are lost. But they are not the wicked. And as I have said in another thread, the wicked are not lost. Only the righteous were ever lost.

Quantrill

Thank you, Quantrill. I've been stumped by this one. I've wondered if there is a distinction being made beyond the fact we are all born in sin. I guess I've just let the question go because I just can't seem to find an answer. Maybe I'm looking for an explanation for sociopaths or abusers. At the very least, I wanted to understand who is being referred to as going astray as soon as they are born (maybe those who will never be saved?). I appreciate your insight!

 

[mattfivefour]

Respectfully, I have a different view of this verse. Mine is much in line with Dave Guzik's view. It is based on the context of the entire Psalm, which is an imprecation against wicked judges and rulers. This is why it is so important when studying the Bible that you understand what the circumstances were when something was written. When you see the 58th psalm in its proper context, then everything within the entire psalm flows and fits together.

I highly recommend you take a look at the psalm in Dave's commentary at enduringword.com to get the full picture. But for now, here is an except from the relevant verses in the Enduring Word commentary on Psalm 58:

(Verses 3-5) A description of the wicked rulers.​

The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent;
They are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear,
Which will not heed the voice of charmers,
Charming ever so skillfully.

a. The wicked are estranged from the womb: David diagnosed the problem of the judges; they were wicked at the root, in their nature, from birth. David understood this of all humanity including himself (Psalm 51:5).

i. “The description in verses 3ff. is close enough to what is quoted in Romans 3:10ff. to warn the reader that he faces a mirror, not only a portrait.” (Kidner)

ii. “G.K. Chesterson said that the doctrine of original sin is the only philosophy that has been empirically validated by thirty-five hundred years of human history.” (Boice)

iii. “Sinful, indeed, we are all by nature, and a birth-blot we bring into the world with us, making us strangers and strayers from God.” (Trapp)

iv. In the next few verses, “Figure is heaped on figure in a fashion suggestive of intense emotion.” (Maclaren)

b. They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies: Their corrupt nature was evident early in life, especially in their words. No one has to teach a child how to lie; with some poetic hyperbole we can say they are born, speaking lies.

i. “To be untruthful is one of the surest proofs of a fallen state, and since falsehood is universal, so also is human depravity.” (Spurgeon)

c. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: The lies are not harmless; they are like poison. The words of judges and rulers have special power to oppress others, and their poison is more deadly. The words of these judges were as dangerous as a deadly, unpredictable cobra.

i. “The wicked are as dangerous as the venomous cobra that bites his trainer when touched and handled by him.” (VanGemeren)

 

[Anastacia]

Respectfully, I have a different view of this verse. Mine is much in line with Dave Guzik's view. It is based on the context of the entire Psalm, which is an imprecation against wicked judges and rulers. This is why it is so important when studying the Bible that you understand what the circumstances were when something was written. When you see the 58th psalm in its proper context, then everything within the entire psalm flows and fits together.

I highly recommend you take a look at the psalm in Dave's commentary at enduringword.com to get the full picture. But for now, here is an except from the relevant verses in the Enduring Word commentary on Psalm 58:

(Verses 3-5) A description of the wicked rulers.​

The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent;
They are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear,
Which will not heed the voice of charmers,
Charming ever so skillfully.

a. The wicked are estranged from the womb: David diagnosed the problem of the judges; they were wicked at the root, in their nature, from birth. David understood this of all humanity including himself (Psalm 51:5).

i. “The description in verses 3ff. is close enough to what is quoted in Romans 3:10ff. to warn the reader that he faces a mirror, not only a portrait.” (Kidner)

ii. “G.K. Chesterson said that the doctrine of original sin is the only philosophy that has been empirically validated by thirty-five hundred years of human history.” (Boice)

iii. “Sinful, indeed, we are all by nature, and a birth-blot we bring into the world with us, making us strangers and strayers from God.” (Trapp)

iv. In the next few verses, “Figure is heaped on figure in a fashion suggestive of intense emotion.” (Maclaren)

b. They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies: Their corrupt nature was evident early in life, especially in their words. No one has to teach a child how to lie; with some poetic hyperbole we can say they are born, speaking lies.

i. “To be untruthful is one of the surest proofs of a fallen state, and since falsehood is universal, so also is human depravity.” (Spurgeon)

c. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: The lies are not harmless; they are like poison. The words of judges and rulers have special power to oppress others, and their poison is more deadly. The words of these judges were as dangerous as a deadly, unpredictable cobra.

i. “The wicked are as dangerous as the venomous cobra that bites his trainer when touched and handled by him.” (VanGemeren)

Well, my first problem was that I did not realize the Psalm was only speaking of the rulers! As soon as it began referring to them as "the wicked", I thought it was broadly referring to everyone, but specifically those who do all the evil things described. I lost the context.

Thank you for pointing out Guzik's commentary on this! I like him a lot but didnt think to check what he said. He mentioned that "corrupt nature was evident early in life, especially in their words. No one has to teach a child how to lie..." so that does seem to apply to all of us, but it was just such a strong statement to read that they are wayward from the womb.

And when David prays for their teeth to be broken in their mouth, I wondered if this was the cry of those hurt by the lies, injustice, and violence of "the wicked", and asking God to intervene. So, I leapt to the most evil I could imagine: abusers and psychopaths.

Thank you for the reminder not to lose sight of the context!!