LEFT BEHIND FOR BAD BEHAVIOR?

[Andy C]

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3, KJV

13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
Matthew 19:13-15, KJV

5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Matthew 18:5-6, KJV

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:8, KJV

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Matthew 19:25-26, KJV

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:20, KJV

Is it necessary to fully understand the Gospel to go to heaven?​

Is it necessary to fully understand the Gospel to go to heaven? Is it enough to believe it, even if we do not fully understand it? | GotQuestions.org

Is it necessary to fully understand the Gospel to go to heaven? Is it enough to believe it, even if we do not fully understand it?

www.gotquestions.org

I dont want you to think its personal with my posts. Perhaps you were the exception, but what really matters is not when, its that your saved.

 

[Margery]

How do you know? Peter seems very interested but I’m afraid of reading too much into it due to my excitement or of discouraging him because I won’t believe if and when he’s ready.

Well look at it this way, if he's ready, he'll understand and he'll respond. If he wasn't ready yet, you are training him for the time when he is.

As our kids grew older (and as I did) there is a constant re committment as the child grows in knowledge and understanding. It's why I wanted full Baptist immersion at 18. When I was 10 all I knew, all I had available was sprinkling. I took it. But as I grew older I wanted to identify with Christ in a deeper fuller way.

The point wasn't so much the type of baptism- because in my view sprinkling or dunking - both are identifying with Christ but it was more about wanting more from Christ, wanting to grow.

If he wasn't ready - and you lead him in prayer to give his heart to the Lord, God will prepare his heart for that time yet future. That might look like a re-committment. That actually is his salvation moment.

But if he IS ready, and you lead him in prayer for salvation with the understanding he is capable of, then he belongs to the Lord from that moment on. And future re committments are just that, renewing his vows to the Lord, deepening with his deepening understanding as he grows up.

The thing is, the Lord knows the hearts of our children. He alone knows what is a saving faith moment, what is a renewing of that moment and all the moments in between.

I know the reality of my committment to the Lord at 4 looking back thru time. I can trace it.

I know the reality of both my kids behaviour changes afterwards. They were subtle but there. And their hearts remained tender to the Lord and they live for Him today. But really I'm just looking at fruit. God knows the hearts.

 

[mattfivefour]

Is it necessary to fully understand the Gospel to go to heaven?

I simply offer the following:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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[Cheeky200386]

Well look at it this way, if he's ready, he'll understand and he'll respond. If he wasn't ready yet, you are training him for the time when he is.

As our kids grew older (and as I did) there is a constant re committment as the child grows in knowledge and understanding. It's why I wanted full Baptist immersion at 18. When I was 10 all I knew, all I had available was sprinkling. I took it. But as I grew older I wanted to identify with Christ in a deeper fuller way.

The point wasn't so much the type of baptism- because in my view sprinkling or dunking - both are identifying with Christ but it was more about wanting more from Christ, wanting to grow.

If he wasn't ready - and you lead him in prayer to give his heart to the Lord, God will prepare his heart for that time yet future. That might look like a re-committment. That actually is his salvation moment.

But if he IS ready, and you lead him in prayer for salvation with the understanding he is capable of, then he belongs to the Lord from that moment on. And future re committments are just that, renewing his vows to the Lord, deepening with his deepening understanding as he grows up.

The thing is, the Lord knows the hearts of our children. He alone knows what is a saving faith moment, what is a renewing of that moment and all the moments in between.

I know the reality of my committment to the Lord at 4 looking back thru time. I can trace it.

I know the reality of both my kids behaviour changes afterwards. They were subtle but there. And their hearts remained tender to the Lord and they live for Him today. But really I'm just looking at fruit. God knows the hearts.

I understand. I just desperately want assurance because I've read and heard so many horror stories of professing Christian parents whose children grew up and ended up being worse than unbelievers. It's like what in the world went wrong?! The only reason I'm homeschooling is because I want to fully disciple my children and infuse a Biblical Apologetic Worldview in them. If they walk away or reject it, I'll see it as all for naught. That is really the only point of the sacrifice for me, their eternal souls.

 

[Margery]

I understand. I just desperately want assurance because I've read and heard so many horror stories of professing Christian parents whose children grow up and end up being worse than unbelievers. It's like what in the world went wrong?! The only reason I'm homeschooling is because I want to fully disciple my children and infuse a Biblical Apologetic Worldview in them. If they walk away or reject it, I'll see it as all for naught. That is really the only point of the sacrifice for me, their eternal souls.

The parents I observed whose kids serve the Lord, they spoke as you do. Their commitment was intense to make sure to pass along to the kids their faith and the reason for it. They made it a daily walk with their kids. Bible reading and prayer.

Another thing is love. The successful parents loved their kids. Everyone is supposed to love their kids, and many do. But the kind of love I mean involves face to face time. Hugs, discipline that is given with mercy but still given. Conversations, laughter, humour. Boundaries and limits. Consequences that make sense and aren't done in anger. Spending quantity time because that is the kind that allows you to take advantage of the teachable moments when they arrive.

It comes down to time, plus love, plus modelling being a Christian. Kids see what you do more than what you say. If you put your faith into practice, they will see it and understand it. If you talk with them often, listen to them, take time with them, treat them with respect, they will hear you and learn from you and respect you.


The ones that I saw that didn't do so well: Pretty much the opposite of that recipe above.

The ones whose kids fell away served the church first before the family. They were at meetings at church rather than sports practices. They'd spout things like "God will take care of it if I put God first". But they'd put their kids last. And the needs of the church organization first. They confused God with church meetings.

They didn't examine what was being taught in Sunday School, they just dumped the kids and ran back to the adult service. They figured Christian schools would teach the kids about Christian life. So they put them in Christian Schools so they didn't have to worry about discipling the kids, countering the stuff they got in school. If the kids could parrot stuff back at them or look "christian" the parents were happy.

When they were around the kids, it was busy pressured time, too many schedule conflicts, sports activities, music lessons, just way too much going on. The one on one face time that those kids got with their own parents was less than with their peers, less than with their school teachers etc. Everyone but the parents were bringing those kids up.

I can't recall too many that were homeschooled,- and the one homeschooler exception (mother of 13) that had a few of her kids rebel, most of them are back now. Her unsaved cult follower husband was abusive, she had to divorce him so there were other factors going on besides homeschooling. And most of her kids are back last I heard.

Abusive homes were another factor. The kids would see one face at church, then another reality at home.

Parents who cut corners- too busy to discipline so they'd turn on the TV, let the kids watch all kinds of stuff but tell themselves it was ok. They were busy. They had other things to do. Christian school and Sunday school would make sure the kids got a Christian education.

I could go on with specific examples but the bottom line is Time, plus love, plus walking the walk in front of the kids. There is no such thing as "quality time", there is only quantity time spent with love, respect, gentle but firm limits and boundaries and being authentic as you walk the walk.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

Im not thinking little children is referring to toddler aged children.

The Bible doesn't specify the ages. I bet some Parents might have even carried babies to Jesus for blessing, etc.

How many people take their toddlers and preschoolers and sometimes even babies, especially when they have more than one child, to the front of the church for the children's message?
Or take them to Sunday School, Vacation Bible School, etc. Or even preschool? For the purpose of learning, which means it is known these children can learn and are capable of understanding.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

I have mostly kept quiet about this, but honestly, I find it hard to believe that a young childs brain is developed enough to understand what salvation is. Im certainly not questioning anyone on this forum salvation, but I do question that they truly understood what they were saying in regards to salvation at the super young age some have mentioned on here. But, as always, thats just my opinion.

With Parental (and other) teaching and various forms of feedback, little kids learn all sorts of YES-NO/GOOD-BAD things as a very small child.

Starting around 1 or 2, Parents might impose various punishments or rewards for bad behavior or good behavior, meaning they know that children can learn and make choices about right and wrong at that age. The same kind of thinking in the brain applies to the choice to believe Jesus died for your sins and you go to Heaven after you die, or to not believe Jesus died for your sins and you go to Hell after you die. The child has to know what sin is (simplistically bad behavior, defiance, words), Heaven (beautiful and good place UP with God), Hell (terrible place DOWN away from God), and Jesus (Son of God) died so if you believe you go to Heaven instead of Hell. It's helpful if the child knows someone, who died (maybe Grandma, etc.), but not necessary to have a very simple and straightforward understanding of God's grace (Salvation), God's love (sent Jesus), and consequences (good-Heaven and bad-Hell).

All the more complete knowledge of basic doctrine, and later, deep understanding, comes later, as Parents, Grandparents, Sunday School teachers, etc. read the Bible to and teach the child and the child starts to read Bible stories and the Bible. The most basic children's hymns teach and reinforce many important, basic truths: Jesus Loves Me and What a Friend We Have in Jesus come to mind.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

I understand. I just desperately want assurance because I've read and heard so many horror stories of professing Christian parents whose children grow up and end up being worse than unbelievers. It's like what in the world went wrong?! The only reason I'm homeschooling is because I want to fully disciple my children and infuse a Biblical Apologetic Worldview in them. If they walk away or reject it, I'll see it as all for naught. That is really the only point of the sacrifice for me, their eternal souls.

Teaching your children is never for naught. It is a good work God has prepared for you to do. God wouldn't give you something to do and then not equip you to do it or work done in His name to not yield fruit (maybe delayed). God wouldn't give us pointless and useless things to do, as He has so much work to do that He wouldn't cause His servants to waste time (whether we see it or not--I'm guilty of not seeing this for many years LOL)

Prodigals come back to The Lord all the time. The parable is instructive and exemplifies this.

My Parents brought all three of us up in the Christian faith. One of my siblings has strayed from the faith. I stand on this as a promise with regards to my sibling:

6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 22:6, KJV

Note that Proverbs 22:6 does not say that when the Parents are old, it's when the child is old, so a Prodigal might not come back until after the Parents are dead.


10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:10-24, KJV

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

The parents I observed whose kids serve the Lord, they spoke as you do. Their commitment was intense to make sure to pass along to the kids their faith and the reason for it. They made it a daily walk with their kids. Bible reading and prayer.

Another thing is love. The successful parents loved their kids. Everyone is supposed to love their kids, and many do. But the kind of love I mean involves face to face time. Hugs, discipline that is given with mercy but still given. Conversations, laughter, humour. Boundaries and limits. Consequences that make sense and aren't done in anger. Spending quantity time because that is the kind that allows you to take advantage of the teachable moments when they arrive.

It comes down to time, plus love, plus modelling being a Christian. Kids see what you do more than what you say. If you put your faith into practice, they will see it and understand it. If you talk with them often, listen to them, take time with them, treat them with respect, they will hear you and learn from you and respect you.


The ones that I saw that didn't do so well: Pretty much the opposite of that recipe above.

The ones whose kids fell away served the church first before the family. They were at meetings at church rather than sports practices. They'd spout things like "God will take care of it if I put God first". But they'd put their kids last. And the needs of the church organization first. They confused God with church meetings.

They didn't examine what was being taught in Sunday School, they just dumped the kids and ran back to the adult service. They figured Christian schools would teach the kids about Christian life. So they put them in Christian Schools so they didn't have to worry about discipling the kids, countering the stuff they got in school. If the kids could parrot stuff back at them or look "christian" the parents were happy.

When they were around the kids, it was busy pressured time, too many schedule conflicts, sports activities, music lessons, just way too much going on. The one on one face time that those kids got with their own parents was less than with their peers, less than with their school teachers etc. Everyone but the parents were bringing those kids up.

I can't recall too many that were homeschooled,- and the one homeschooler exception (mother of 13) that had a few of her kids rebel, most of them are back now. Her unsaved cult follower husband was abusive, she had to divorce him so there were other factors going on besides homeschooling. And most of her kids are back last I heard.

Abusive homes were another factor. The kids would see one face at church, then another reality at home.

Parents who cut corners- too busy to discipline so they'd turn on the TV, let the kids watch all kinds of stuff but tell themselves it was ok. They were busy. They had other things to do. Christian school and Sunday school would make sure the kids got a Christian education.

I could go on with specific examples but the bottom line is Time, plus love, plus walking the walk in front of the kids. There is no such thing as "quality time", there is only quantity time spent with love, respect, gentle but firm limits and boundaries and being authentic as you walk the walk.

My Parents fit some of the bad parenting styles RE successfully passing on the faith. However, God knew this would happen and made sure my Maternal Grandmother was there and did what needed to be done, when it needed to be done, and that I had good Sunday School teachers, especially Molly, who did what needed to be done when it needed to be done. His time, not ours. His ways, not ours.

 

[Andy C]

With Parental (and other) teaching and various forms of feedback, little kids learn all sorts of YES-NO/GOOD-BAD things as a very small child.

Starting around 1 or 2, Parents might impose various punishments or rewards for bad behavior or good behavior, meaning they know that children can learn and make choices about right and wrong at that age. The same kind of thinking in the brain applies to the choice to believe Jesus died for your sins and you go to Heaven after you die, or to not believe Jesus died for your sins and you go to Hell after you die. The child has to know what sin is (simplistically bad behavior, defiance, words), Heaven (beautiful and good place UP with God), Hell (terrible place DOWN away from God), and Jesus (Son of God) died so if you believe you go to Heaven instead of Hell. It's helpful if the child knows someone, who died (maybe Grandma, etc.), but not necessary to have a very simple and straightforward understanding of God's grace (Salvation), God's love (sent Jesus), and consequences (good-Heaven and bad-Hell).

All the more complete knowledge of basic doctrine, and later, deep understanding, comes later, as Parents, Grandparents, Sunday School teachers, etc. read the Bible to and teach the child and the child starts to read Bible stories and the Bible. The most basic children's hymns teach and reinforce many important, basic truths: Jesus Loves Me and What a Friend We Have in Jesus come to mind.

This thread has giving me a lot to chew on, and further my studies.

The below is from Andy Woods:

A toddler, like any person, can be saved if they place their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior. However, because toddlers typically lack the ability to understand and articulate the gospel message, it is difficult to validate whether they have truly trusted Christ. Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, and faith must be a conscious trust in Jesus. Therefore, the usual practice is to wait until a child reaches an age where they can understand the gospel and express their faith before baptism or other public affirmations of salvation.

Toddlers are born with a sinful nature and need salvation just like adults do, but their spiritual maturity is limited by their age. Parents and the church have the responsibility to teach and nurture children in the faith as they grow. The Bible encourages training up a child in the way they should go so that when they are older, they will not depart from it (Proverbs 22:6). God's grace covers those who are too young to believe, and many believe that children who die before reaching an age of accountability go to be with the Lord.

In summary, a toddler can be saved if they truly believe in Christ, but because of their limited understanding, the church typically waits for a clear profession of faith before baptism or formal recognition.

Relevant Bible verses:


• Proverbs 22:6 — "Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it."


• John 3:16 — "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."


• Ephesians 2:8-9 — "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

AskAndy

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

Interesting that some of the same verses are quoted by both sides of the "too young" discussion

 

[Supertonman20]

So the bottom line is your ticket to the rapture came with your membership in the Church. It’s part of the inheritance you were guaranteed when you first believed (Ephes. 1:13-14). And your membership in the Church came as a result of your belief that Jesus gave His life to pay the penalty for all your sins and rose again to show that His payment was sufficient (Romans 10:9). As soon as you believed that you became as righteous as He is. There’s nothing you can do for good or bad that will ever change that (Romans 8:38-39). So if we’re all as righteous as God is, how can some deserve to go in the rapture or gain entry into the Kingdom while others don’t? They can’t.

I'm glad I'm getting rid of this behavior I wish I never had.

 

[Andy C]

Interesting that some of the same verses are quoted by both sides of the "too young" discussion

I wish I had been saved at a young age, unless being 49 is considered young…..

I appreciate your input on a very young age salvation, but causing me to think is dangerous…