I'm thinking or at least hoping that those sad, sad people are even fewer than the ones who believe in a flat Earth.
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It has begun
- Thread starter Almost Heaven
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TCC
Well-known
Thanks for your reply Margery. I appreciate your seeing what was fulfilled by Antiochus. I know we have seen differently regarding Isaiah on this. I also appreciate the notice of potential different timings of peace and safety. With that being said, I would believe for us, the age of grace, and we get one, the one it could be would be Ez 38, and not the AC. There is a lot of energy and focus going into peace and safety and what is going on in the middle east to be an AC in the minds of most entirely all. With maybe a side dish of Ez 38 it would seem.
Yeah, so the reason I asked was because, to me, if there is only one peace and safety any of us alive today might be concerned with, it would not be a beast system/AC one though i submit. If we get one it's one that comes in the age of grace. That is a bit like saying, there only is one for the age of grace. Not 2. And its not AC. But the way that is expressed in evangelicalism is 97.5 percent AC, and 2.5% Ez 38...and maybe not even that. Deduction I believe would hold that if we are to have a percentage, it should be the exact opposite i believe of how it is being portrayed today though, me thinks.
There is something interesting in what you brought up that just dawned on me if the way the way things go. No bars or gates would make a THUNDEROUS highlight presence if Gaza is no longer inhabited by rivals. If that changes and there is no two state solution any longer...wow...that is like an element in a recipe we taste at just the right moment upon the pallet. I've made affirmations previously on this forum of the still potential option of a two-state solution. Mainly because if there could be one managed by lets say several nations, it could, by comparison, be peace and safety. But an even better answer than that would be if Gaza is no longer rival occupation and walls come down. Then we have 2 verses for the price of one. No gates or walls freshly removed, wink wink, and peace and safety (no rival two state-solution). Under the auspices of Occam's Razor it would seem most fitting for our day that Israel not stay with a two state solution. Until this day, I did not recognize the reasonableness of that perspective. But now i do.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply dear sister. Blessings.
I don't see a Biblical basis for that.
Vance: Iran’s Conventional Missile Program ‘Largely Destroyed’
On Monday’s broadcast of the Fox News Channel’s “Special Report,” Vice President JD Vance stated that Iran’s air defenses and nuclear programs have been completely taken out of commission and the conventional missile program of Iran “has been largely” taken out.He added, “I think what the Iranians have shown very clearly is they don’t want this war to go on for much longer. Their air defenses have been totally destroyed. Their conventional missile program has been largely destroyed, and, of course, their nuclear program has been obliterated, as I said before. So, I think the Iranians are in a place where they don’t want to keep on fighting.”
Vance: Iran's Conventional Missile Program 'Largely Destroyed'
On Monday's broadcast of the Fox News Channel's "Special Report," Vice President JD Vance stated that Iran's air defenses and nuclear programs have been | Clips
www.breitbart.com
I would suggest that Iran's ballistic missile stockpiles and launchers are still a formidable tool for waging war. Decreased in numbers, yes, but Iran still has too many of both and will start building more again.
As for air defenses, that has not been completely taken out. Only the major systems in areas where Israel and later the B-2s were operating, and it seemed that AAA (anti-aircraft artillery) was alive and well the entire time. While AAA didn't bring any aircraft down, it just takes a lucky strike to do just that.
I think the "subduing" of Iran is being largely overstated. Their military is in large part in ruins, but they will restore themselves and even now can launch missiles at will against Israel. Hopefully the nuclear sites really have been utterly destroyed.
Vance: Iran Will Have to Deal with U.S. Military Again if They Rebuild Nuke Program
On Monday’s broadcast of the Fox News Channel’s “Special Report,” Vice President JD Vance stated that if Iran tries to build a nuclear weapon again, “they’re going to have to deal with a very, very powerful American military again.” And he hopes that Iran has learned the lesson that “we can destroy whatever nuclear capacity you build up. I think that lesson is what’s going to teach them not to rebuild their nuclear capacity.”Host Bret Baier asked, “So, after all of this, if the Iranian government survives as is, what’s to stop it from rebuilding over time if they, in fact, moved the 60% highly enriched uranium? That’s the concern.”
Vance responded, “No, the big concern, Bret — and this is, again, what we destroyed — is, their ability to enrich uranium. If they have 60% enriched uranium, but they don’t have the ability to enrich it to 90%, and, further, they don’t have the ability to convert that to a nuclear weapon, that is mission success. That is the obliteration of their nuclear program, which is why the president, I think, rightly, is using that term.”
Vance: Iran Will Have to Deal with U.S. Military Again if They Rebuild Nuke Program
On Monday's broadcast of the Fox News Channel's "Special Report," Vice President JD Vance stated that if Iran tries to build a nuclear weapon again, | Clips
www.breitbart.com
Or maybe we'll have a deja vu experience where a future administration funds Iran's nuclear ambitions...
TCC
Well-known
I did see something I thought I would run into concerning that. Not in the bible. But from the general political camp that would have genuine concern for Palestine. Much in the way we saw a major concern for Syrian refugee children during early Trump 45 era. From what I can tell, in those camps, there are those that would view the Palestinian people not so much as a community that supports terror out of fear or being naive, but as feeling oppressed by a larger governmental agency. There was one lady I check in with from time to time that used to be on The Hill's Rising show platform, who has her own following now. She is not particularly interested in the bible nor prophecy but weighed in on what she noticed in evangelicalism and the perceived Ez 38 attack to come.
In viewing that, I was thinking this host was going to suggest that America might be the country that Ez 38 is talking about (from her understanding of the gene pool of Isreal spreading thin during the diaspora as well as a potential replacement theology motif afloat out there in the American Christian Reformed world). But instead, lol, wow, what she did was pose the question of it being Palestine. At the conclusion of this discovery, it became clear she meant it as a parable in support of her political and ideological views concerning the middle east. Now that was a new one, lol, I did not see coming. Although, of course, this commentator is very removed from scripture and meaning. But that did not stop her from making the perhaps most minority view of all.
As different as some of my eschatological views go, I don't recall ever running into any camp with America as the perceived country in Ezekiel 38 mention (having no gates or walls). But I must admit, by slight of scriptural hand, the thought did recently pop into my head unawares...lol. I'm sure there is that view out there somewhere. But I would think it would have an extremely exceedingly difficult task before it in explaining how all the countries mentioned would find a way to corner the land mass of America. From what I have seen, it is a difficult enough path for scholars and pastors, and theologians to even keep track of what those countries in Ez 38 mentioned are doing now or how they relate to Israel or are shaping up into a hoard against Israel with any eye toward evolving accuracy, much less if America were to be the defendant.
For me, though, something like that would be just another case of how often America, in idiomatic social artifact like fashion, seems to continuelly be mirrored with Israel. Which I find in and of itself a somewhat interesting phenomenon in our day. As much as it can be common in eschatological circles to inch America out of the scope of prophecy, to me, it is just a bit ironic how it seems to constantly seemingly sneak its way into comparison with Israel even though. Would make a great essay paper in any event. Blessings.
TCC
Well-known
Thanks Majery. Some interesting points there to consider. Amen. I believe there is likely a lot of something to all of that. I remember when Trump 45 first started out Putin ran a video of a new missle power and demonstrated how it might work by targeting America on the video. Which he got a ton of heat for...lol. So gangster like threats of that kind certainly do have noticeable precedent. I'm wondering something else though possibly too.
In the USA we see how entrenched the deep state is into our entire system. We see the epitome of it in a Biden election and term. Where America becomes globalism itself by virtue. Just like America has its deep state, it would seem this is the model globalist model for all countries. Of course there may be factions fighting for what underhanded ideology gains the most leverage and maybe some of those factions or more crime syndicates not overly related to globalism. But it would seem globalism would perhaps be the mother hen guiding her otherwise wayward cronies in general under the auspeces of globalism proper, would be kind of how I might view that.
To such a degree it would seem (from the grand scale systematic global view) that China would have been the globalist preferred origin country to most fully function out of. It is much easier to write history through communists handwriting than it would be to upend America and make her the globalist dominant leader. The risk of the constitution having a place in the world would be a long standing threat to criminal syndicates mentality. So it would seem with China removed from general WEF mandates, they would be THE country most likely to have benefit in shaping a hub nation from which the globalist operate from and through. China has the right totalitarian government, and has successfully evaded climate change mandates, as well as have AI social credit score keeping over the masses tech level that be the envy of any crime syndicate wanting to rule the world.
That was a little detour to silhouette the idea that maybe there is a deep state in many countries. And the way that has seemed to work (as we see in America) is to become that government (invasion from within). What that looks like in America is the FED which is the mother ship hub of global central banking systems. It has emerged this high profile on the American stage. So that makes me wonder too what that might look like in Russia. Putin of course being from the KGB is a class act himself, lol. But one thing he would not seem to be is a globalist player. But Medvedev? I don't know. What do you think? Might it be possible that Medvedev is possibly Russian deep state?
The kinds of things said about other countries giving nuclear warheads to Iran to strike America back would seem at least in one sense too perhaps a desperate rally call from a potentially dying globalist animal cornered. The way Trump addressed that from Truth Social seems to appear to possibly a sense of the possibliity of this. Because we know Trump did speak with Putin before the bombing and not about the Ukraine war. And then there is Putin's absence of commenting on regime change. Or how the US military strategy is going. But seemingly more on stepping in as a negotaiting advocate for Iran. Which would seem to be a position a national leader might take after talks with Trump. Knowing Iran would be bombed and the direction that would inevitably have to take (with Iran being so weakened militarily). At the end of the day, "My enemies enemy is my friend," might have some clout there perhaps. At least maybe in the short term. Where the enemy to both America and Russia would be globalism.
And although Iran is not typically seen as a globalist player, it would seem that a country like Iran in the hands of globlalism might look similar to how it does when North Korea is in the globalists hands. A trigger country to ignite WW3 back up strategy. Which Trump seemed to divert at the DMZ photo op level. Clearing Kim Jong Un did not like the America CIA version of diplomacy. But he was fine with Trump. Perhaps a larger tell than what might meet the eye?
I don't know. You seem to have a reasonable clear beat on Russia. And maybe Medvedev is just used in optics as you have well laid out, amen. The world stage becomes very complicated to discern at certain levels. That is for sure. But boiled down to common denominators, as best we might, it would at least seem to stand to reason that Putin is interested in his country having power. And that is not arrived at by submitting to globalist ideology and agenda. So if anything, maybe the clearest vision of what it looks like to not go along with globalism might be easier to detect in Putin then even Trump (who can often seem to send rather mixed messages). Perhaps? Blessings.
Ghoti Ichthus
Genesis 18:32, 2 Chronicles 7:14, Acts 5:29
[very minority view]
I am NOT a theologian, Pastor, teacher, or anything else with any authority or special knowledge.
It's just that when I read Ezekiel 38 and 39, it seems to tell me something different than the majority view.
Regardless, this is NOT a Salvation issue, and regardless of timing, we know Gog will eventually invade Israel.
I think Ezekiel 38-39 started in 2014 with Gog/USSR invading Crimean part of Ukraine or in 2022 with Gog/USSR invading Ukraine. Gog/USSR stymied in Ukraine may be God stopping and turning Gog/USSR back for the time being. I think when the hooks are set, Gog/USSR and its coalition continue toward Israel as the second push in Ezekiel 38-39.
I think the US and Canada are the lands of unwalled villages and isles people live in mentioned in Ezekiel 38:10-13 and Ezekiel 39:6. The populations of both Canada and the U.S. are from many nations, and as very rich countries, have gotten all sorts of cattle, crops, goods, etc. Living without walls, gates, and bars is careless living brought about by feeling secure and at peace and not having had a war fought here for a very long time. I also think God wasn't ready for the Eastern world to know about the Western hemisphere at the time Ezekiel was written, and compared to the eastern hemisphere, North America was sparsely populated until after the Europeans started immigrating here. Who knows, it may have even been unpopulated until the population dispersion at the Tower of Babel and people crossing the land bridge/Bearing Strait.
I also think Ezekiel 38:10-13 is a parenthesis like the Church because of the words "at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou salt think an evil thought . . ."
Additionally, looking at this even more, the young lions, if they're the former colonies of England, say have you come, not did you go, to take a spoil, which I think may indicate that Gog invades one or more of the young lions. If God had meant Israel as the land of unwalled villages, I think he would have said Israel. When I was in Israel, the Kibbutz and various towns, including Jerusalem, had walls and other fortifications. Parts of Tel Aviv have walls, and there's the separation barrier made up of wall, fences, and military roads, checkpoints, and fortifications, which Israel built in the early 2000s to protect themselves from Palestinian terrorism.
Given President Putin's posturing and how the war in Ukraine is going, I could even see Gog/USSR nuking both the US and Ukraine. It looks to me as if Gog/USSR is destroyed in the mountains of Israel about the same time as fire from heaven hits people dwelling in the isles and Magog (Ezekiel 39:1-9). North and South America are continents, which could be considered very large islands, and maybe God didn't want to divulge their existence at that time.
FWIW, I also believe the whole House of Israel, or at least the saved of the House of Israel, with or without the Messianic Christians, will be resurrected and placed in Israel by God, maybe as the Army to fight Gog/coalition (Ezekiel 37). This might be right after the Rapture, and it might be that the Rapture is what emboldens Gog/USSR to head south to Israel and also invade the unwalled villages. Given the number of Christians in the US and Canada, there's going to be a serious lack of people to defend what is here, and a lot of chaos/disorganization because of the void.
10 Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
Ezekiel 38:10-13, KJV
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.
Ezekiel 39:1-6, KJV
1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.
15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Ezekiel 37
[ducks rocks]
Hol
Well-known
The purpose of the future wars is to cause the remnant of Israelis to call on the Lord and be saved. All of today’s believers will be gone, so what do you think God’s purpose would be to turn Gog’s attention to attack Canada and the US? And remember, Satan hates Israel.
Borrowing from TT…
‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’
ברוך הוא שבא בשם ה
pixelpusher
Well-known
But in Ezekiel 3, after he had been given the scroll to eat, God told Ezekiel to go speak to the land of Israel, not to many people of foreign speech.
Nobody is throwing rocks here, sis. Nor would we. Every member is free to express their good-faith opinions. These kinds of discussions are almost always beneficial, useful for improving our understanding of Scripture and our confidence in its perfect reliability.
TCC
Well-known
I have about 3 to 5 themes that are outside the mainstream culture of evangelicalism today. And in some cases, historically. And in some cases not. But all three of the main ones I have shared with this forum. Although there are different views here on those themes, this forum has afforded my consideration in different perspectives with great patience and care. Since being on JDF and this forum as well, I don't believe there has been one person I met that would agree with my views...lol. Prior to JDF, my discussing my top 3 had been going on 3 years prior to arriving at that forum. In all those 8 years since, not one person agrees with my main views.
The closest common ground with all of those views would be that Israel today can be as much under the chastising of God as they are remaining in His Abrahamic Covenant with Israel. In general, evangelicalism does not seem to search out how that kind of view can impact how we are forming a sense of what is going on today. However, it has been affirmed on this forum through discussions that both tensions are equally alive today concerning Israel. And although that tension is not exactly one of any of my three main differences, it is enough for a plethora of other discussion to be possible in how we are looking at things forming today.
So like I guess to the degree where our individual views may be significantly different than mainstream perspectives, what can be hoped for is not so much that others agree or see our views enough to change their views. But rather in what ways can the robust profoundness at the core of our concerns still be shared and encourage edifying discussions because of having considered them. And from what pastor has mentioned about a lot of good can come out of different ways some of us might be looking at things, I would agree that is the case here. But aside from Ez 38 being about America and Canada (which will likely not be an arena of agreement), why is that important to know beyond how prophesy in your view might go? Like is there something helpful about how you see this difference (aside from how events will occur) that can help widen discussion? Like one example would be, in God's overall plan of redemption and fulfillment of prophesy, why America and Candada? How might that fit in a whole counsel of God throughout His word make sense to you? Perhaps in those ways it can also be addressed? Just trying to find where common ground could be helpful in discussion.
I think it is pretty brave to assert your view.
Even though I don't agree, there might be things you see in the word as to why it would be America and Canada though where I might share in like mindedness. Blessings.
Ghoti Ichthus
Genesis 18:32, 2 Chronicles 7:14, Acts 5:29
[very minority opinion]
If the land of unwalled villages is Canada/US, it may be that Gog/USSR sees an opportunity to obtain food and supplies, which always end up short during a war, especially for the civilians. Maybe even take cattle, agricultural equipment, etc., and military vehicles, aircraft, armament, etc. Especially if the timing is right after the Rapture.
It's the little phrase, "at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou salt think an evil thought . . ." that indicates to me from content and sentence structure that this is separate, as in a parentheses like the Church age.
and going UP. In the Northern hemisphere, North is up. Up from Gog/USSR is the North Pole, and continuing on would be Canada and the U.S. Israel is South (DOWN).
and the people living in the land of unwalled villages are in the midst of the land, so if Canada and the U.S., I wonder if that means the midwest. The terrain between the Rockies and the Appalachians is a lot easier to traverse for military convoys, especially those heavily laden with stolen plunder, than along or near the coasts. The limited crossings along the U.S.-Canadian border and the capacity of the roadways north of the border give potential clues as to routes and targeted goods. The midwest, in general, implies agriculture, but the crossing between Windsor and Detroit implies chemicals, cars, trucks, etc. Minnesota is attractive for tech and medical, as well as agriculture.
Greg
Well-known
Let the one without any minority opinions cast the first rock?Quietly puts rocks down.
I know I read something like that once, but application has never been my strong suit...
TCC
Well-known
I have 5 of my major views as not only minority opinion, but kind of like a sole or solo opinion even...lol. In that my interests would not be rocks. But opportunities to discuss. ON a selfish level, more talk about other minorities views pampers the way to perhaps speak more at some point in the off future of mine perhaps. Not saying it would be like that. But one selfish move on my part to not throw rocks could be to keep general minority views like 5 of my major ones as reasonable discussion points. I don't say that to do so. We are where we are at with my views, and I am completey fine with that. I am just saying, non-rock throwing and sticking up for the underdog post would be of interest to me and cause my heart to likely be partial toward that.
The unselfish version though for me might look like this: I hold my 5 minority views under robust scrutiny. I put my own ideas through the fire and paces because no one else really has them. So I sort of find myself having to check my self as best I can. I don't really consider push back of my views as rock throwing though. Because I know they can come with massive controversy. That would be seen by me as more or less the state of affairs. That is the house and neighborhood will live in. So what would be worse for me than push back would be that everyone agrees. Then I would feel like I was in a cult...lol. And to me, that is far worse for me to live in that state of mind than to responsibly understand with hopeful care why controversy is sound. Rather than any aspect of my views having merit. So on an unselfish level I would be pro-minority view for the sake of healthy and sound tension that should absoltely exist. It becomes a safety margin for others as well as for my self.
Finally, there are moments where some of my views I hold suffer extreme push back because of some who make arguments I have never considered. Bias would immediately cause me to want to reject the push back (speaking of myself alone here). And knowing that, is all the more reason for me to consider the push back. Currently there is one I am struggling with from the JDF support side of our forum. And it is a prestine consdiration. So on that note I guess I would want to support the minority views of others to the degree I could because what to me might seem minority (or even way out there), might have merit. And it highlights my own need to sober minded about my own views. And allow the raw weather elements of problematic areas in regards to my views to have their rightlul place meteorologistically speaking. If that makes sense? Blessings.
TCC
Well-known
Hi @Ghoti Ichthus. Interesting post. The strength of this consideration might be in relation to the 3rd seal being poverty down the road. Or perhaps that which sees it coming in ways and tries to hoard before its great unleashing upon the world. Or perhaps it might be an early catalyst of sorts for it to occur 2 seals later. Plausible, amen. But biblically (as a theme) it would seem to not mean much more, possibly. Or at least as far as I would understand how you might be placing your view.
As for the thought being not during the church age in how the language is used, it makes sense in those latter days might be of course a way to suggest that. If so, to me, at least in looking at how this is expressed, it would be most commingling conceptual with a 3rd seal bent, likely. But as far as a statement of eschatological import trending toward or in the tribulation, it would not seem to make much more of a statement than the increasingly desperate state of affairs of perhaps somewhat Mad Max like realities forming in those later days. And winking mainly at the underscoring of desperate times perhaps. But again, not seemingly much more than that.
Whereas if it is relating to Israel within the scope of contemporary times, there might be quite a bit more weight in a sense from biblical theme:
- Israel highlighted approaching the tribulation
- Verse 23 makes sense if it is Israel. But how might defending America and Cananda resonate in biblical theme though if not Isreal?
- We are alive at a time we do see Ez 38 nation players taking extreme form
- If Ez 38 refers to Israel, and be contemporary, that would mean that Ez 38 is THE prima facie prophetic passage (more than Revelation/Danel etc) in tapping the world on the shoulder as to what time it is
- Highlighting that the 70th week is primarily a context for Israel, Ez 38 could be seen as a grand thematic heads up to Israel and the world of the 70th week marque
All of the above thematically make a lot of sense as to Ez 38 being about Israel as very biblically thematic. But if its a story about America and Cananda and God showing his rescue and defense of them, what biblical theme statement thought might that make, would be my main observation on that.
. . . . .
The above might have ranges of reasonable conversation to consider, amen. But one observation might be more consideration worthy to perhaps remove from the eschatological table. The sense of Gog going "up" North. First of all I would like to say, "well done," in creative observation. For as plain as this might read in Ez 38, I don't recall this perpspective ever having been brought up before. So, to me, it is a novel approach. And a good one. A very "out of the box" like creative approach. Amen.
So we have so many different versions of the bible that may say verse 11 differently. Because of that my natural inclination would be to see how it is slated in the interlinear original language. And when we do that, we do see the word "up." So even in the original language there seems to be a place to have this well observed question or consideration. However, if we look at its range of use, the Hebrew would permit it to be something possibly beyond a direction or location related. Some of the clustered nuances of meaning (but not limited to) would be: cause to, cause to make to, fall (as in "fall upon" -- which would be the exact opposite than "up" directionally, at least in tone use of the concept), fetch up, levy, spring up, shoot forth, stir up, take away, make to pay...etc.
So in Gog "going up," itn context would not necessarily have to be about location or physical direction. The bulk of meaning has the force to rise "up" against.
1. to ascend, intransitively (be high) or actively (mount)
2. used in a great variety of senses, primary and secondary, literal and figurative (as follow)
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
arise up, cause to ascend up, at once, break the day up, bring up, cause to burn
Ezekiel 38:11 Interlinear: And thou hast said: I go up against a land of unwalled villages, I go in to those at rest, dwelling confidently, All of them are dwelling without walls, And bar and doors they have not. verse 11
Strong's Hebrew: 5927. עָלָה (alah) -- To go up, ascend, climb, bring up, offer Strong's 5927. alah
Blessings.
Respectfully, friends, when Ezekiel 38:11 says, "You will say, I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will come against a quiet people who dwell securely, all of them living without walls or bars or gates," the word "up" has absolutely nothing to do with direction. Absolutely nothing. As any dictionary will tell you, "to go up against an enemy" is simply an expression that means "to oppose or come into conflict with someone or something." Nothing more. To suggest that the word "up" in that context can in any way be construed as referring to direction is a gross misunderstanding of the phrase.
So, while I encourage members to express their views freely here, I think we have entertained this particular minority view sufficiently and I would ask we no longer put it forward here. There are just too many scriptural details against it being a correct interpretation. For one thing it totally removes the arc of God's story from being about Israel and the land He gave her in the Middle East. And that destroys the heart of God's story. From God calling Abraham out of Ur of the Chaldees (toward a land which He promised to Abraham and His descendants forever, a land towards which Moses led the freed descendants of Abraham, and into which Joshua took them) to the fact that it is this land around which the entire Old Testament revolves, all mitigate against ANY possibility that future major biblical events will take place in Canada and the United States rather than the Middle East.
So, with respect, I ask gently but firmly that we now put this view to bed forever. Certainly publicly.
Cheeky200386
Well-known
Thank you!!!
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