It has begun

[LightOfMyLife]

Enter the current conflict which Israel is using to destroy and degrade all the surrounding Muslim haters. This might end up being peace and security. Or at the very least part of the path towards that Peace and Security.

Scripture says sudden destruction shall come upon them. I Thessalonians 5:3.

 

[Margery]

With Russia stating today that the world nuclear powers who are friends with Iran {such as North Korea, China, Pakistan and Russia) are willing to to equip them with fully-functioning nuclear warheads, I see these efforts to control Iran leading swiftly to a world situation that is so dangerous, so on the point of all out nuclear war, that people will welcome with open arms a world leader who will promise world peace, drawing us all back from the brink of world nuclear war, and giving Israel the guaranteed peace it needs. I believe the world is about to see the initial appearance of the Antichrist.

100% agree.

Konstantin of Inside Russia was saying about 4 weeks back that Russia is giving off signs of a major war prep for this fall. Whether that is just blowing smoke, or whether that fits with the current rise in anger towards the west from Russia remains to be seen but it's sure interesting to watch.

I've long wondered about why God seems to have held Russia back from going nuclear on Ukraine (tactical nukes, not ones with lasting radiation). It's kind of obvious given Russian access to those type of nukes, and their clear declaration of use in their doctrine of war. Obvious that God is restraining them.

 

[pixelpusher]

With Russia stating today that the world nuclear powers who are friends with Iran {such as North Korea, China, Pakistan and Russia) are willing to to equip them with fully-functioning nuclear warheads, I see these efforts to control Iran leading swiftly to a world situation that is so dangerous, so on the point of all out nuclear war, that people will welcome with open arms a world leader who will promise world peace, drawing us all back from the brink of world nuclear war, and giving Israel the guaranteed peace it needs. I believe the world is about to see the initial appearance of the Antichrist.

Agree things look like like they are headed that direction and the world is ripe for his appearance, but it also seems many are turning to Christ in the ME, and we know God is longsuffering and patient. I've generally thought He'd wait to remove the Restrainer until the last second, perhaps during the E38 assault, or just before. And it doesn't look like the conditions for that are quite set up yet, but almost.

 

[pixelpusher]

On the other hand, the motive for welcoming such a leader who promises peace would be fear of nuclear war. And we know who brings a spirit of fear. Then the first horse is peace, the second war, and we are back to, I believe, Andy Woods' position of E38 being during the beginning of the Trib, at the second horse? Time could be way shorter than we think!

 

[mattfivefour]

Everything God does is to save souls. The purpose for everything that is happening in the world today --the increasing dangers, the out of control chaos, the growing fear-- is to cause people to be lost in panic and turn to God for help. This is how He has always done things.

The Old Testament is full of such examples: doom rapidly approaching on the horizon and the people, with no earthly help in sight, crying out to God. In Jeremiah 36:3, for example, God says, "Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about all the calamity I plan to bring upon them, each of them will turn from his wicked way. Then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin."

So, God is both causing the world to spin into chaos while holding back the Rapture ... so that as many souls as possible will turn from their wicked ways, be forgiven of their iniquity and sin, and be added to His glorious Church forever.

Glory to God!!!

 

[LightOfMyLife]

2 Peter 3:9

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

Agree with you. I don't think his conclusion is correct. "But his comment was like, "Iran cannot surrender because they have to be one of the leading nations in Ez 38."

Iran as Persia IS one of the main participants in Ezek 38. Surrender just means ceasing hostilities. Neither Israel or the USA have any interest in becoming an occupier of Iran.

That leaves them open to wanting some pay back to Israel- and when the opportunity arises, they will go in with Russia and Turkey along with the areas of North Africa and East Africa that Ezek mentions.

In fact this war simply sets up the conditions for Ezek 38.

I agree with your assessment here too:
he does not see a likely necessity for Iran to be pruned down to prove actual real (but limited and short) peace to authentic the time they need to be in in order for Ez 38 to occur to begin with. Chooch is usually more self aware. If our times are in this range, i could see him coming around.

If we are close to the Ezek 38 event, Israel does have to be living in real peace and security just because of where Ezek mentions they are living- in what is now known as the West Bank- they are living without walls or gates.

As for the often repeated Peace and Security phrase, I've been hearing that since I was a child. From the UN, from every "peacekeeping" initiative, from every war as it ended (and often as it began).

I think some of the prophecy watcher community need to dial that down, it's so often used it's meaningless. As a condition right around the time of the Rapture that might mean actual peace and security seems in sight for real - and because the Bible is ALWAYS centred on Israel with prophetic events, this means the phrase "Peace and Security" must be a phrase used with genuine expectation in ISRAEL at the time of the Rapture.

I've seen that happen a few times, generally around the times the various US presidents demand a 2 State Solution on Israel- that this time there will really be peace and security.

Because the Muslims can't help themselves, the "peace" is broken before the ink dries. Rinse and repeat.

So the phrase must have an additional element that actually looks better than all these previous failures. Not something that could actually be used to destroy immanency but something that when it finally happens, everyone sighs with relief. Then the Rapture. Then the exact opposite of Peace and Security.

Enter the current conflict which Israel is using to destroy and degrade all the surrounding Muslim haters. This might end up being peace and security. Or at the very least part of the path towards that Peace and Security.

I think i've swallowed crazy pills today, the rapture group on facebook are all saying that Jeremiah 49 has been fulfilled now ?

I'm like it can't be right because that land has to be desolate and that doesn't seem to be the case with the US strikes that they have just done.

Am i right in my thinking or is this other group on facebook trying to make pieces fit into to the prophetic puzzle and have jumped the gun with Jeremiah 49 being fulfilled ?

 

[Andy C]

Probably not much on the surface, as the MOPS burrow deep underground, and these are buried very deep (which is why the MOPS). There will be a few wisps of smoke and debris floating in the air above the entry holes (I saw Fordow required 6 holes) but the bulk of any radioactivity should stay underground which will work nicely to discourage clean up and reactivation of these sites.

12 bunker busters were dropped on Fordow according to the joint chiefs chairman

 

[mattfivefour]

I think i've swallowed crazy pills today, the rapture group on facebook are all saying that Jeremiah 49 has been fulfilled now ?

I'm like it can't be right because that land has to be desolate and that doesn't seem to be the case with the US strikes that they have just done.

Am i right in my thinking or is this other group on facebook trying to make pieces fit into to the prophetic puzzle and have jumped the gun with Jeremiah 49 being fulfilled ?

As I understand Scripture, you are absolutely correct in your view.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

As I understand Scripture, you are absolutely correct in your view.

Thanks pastor for confirming.

As i mentioned , with that facebook group , something happens that may be a stage settting event and immediately they all jump on the bandwagon and think that a prophecy had been fulfilled

 

[pixelpusher]

Thanks pastor for confirming.

As i mentioned , with that facebook group , something happens that may be a stage settting event and immediately they all jump on the bandwagon and think that a prophecy had been fulfilled

I don't think we've seen the mass exodus unless I missed it.
"I will scatter them to the four winds,
and there will not be a nation
where Elam’s exiles do not go."

 

[Margery]

I think i've swallowed crazy pills today, the rapture group on facebook are all saying that Jeremiah 49 has been fulfilled now ?

I'm like it can't be right because that land has to be desolate and that doesn't seem to be the case with the US strikes that they have just done.

Am i right in my thinking or is this other group on facebook trying to make pieces fit into to the prophetic puzzle and have jumped the gun with Jeremiah 49 being fulfilled ?

As I understand Scripture, you are absolutely correct in your view.

Thanks pastor for confirming.

As i mentioned , with that facebook group , something happens that may be a stage settting event and immediately they all jump on the bandwagon and think that a prophecy had been fulfilled

I don't think we've seen the mass exodus unless I missed it.
"I will scatter them to the four winds,
and there will not be a nation
where Elam’s exiles do not go."

100% Agree!

You aren't nuts, that group on facebook is just doing some wishful thinking. Everyone is hoping that this is it. A little "evang-elastic" to stretch things a bit so they fit our wish.

One of the things to note is that God fulfills stuff to the letter when it's happened in the past. So if it doesn't fit, I doesn't sit!

We might not see any of the Jer 49/Ezek 32 stuff or Ezek 38 or Isaiah 17 because the Rapture could happen at any point.

What we are seeing is a lot of the stuff that has to happen before those prophecies (and the Trib for that matter) being put in place. Stage setting.

That's exciting enough without trying to bend scripture to fit which never works anyway. Just look at the people who've convinced themselves that everything in Revelation happened in Nero's day and we are actually in the Millennium! I heard Chuck Missler joke that if this is the Millennium, Satan's on a pretty long leash!

This is exciting stuff we are seeing. It isn't yet Jer 49 but it sure is looking a lot like a world getting ready for the AC and the AC's "peace" plan.

 

[Andy C]

As for the often repeated Peace and Security phrase, I've been hearing that since I was a child. From the UN, from every "peacekeeping" initiative, from every war as it ended (and often as it began).

I think some of the prophecy watcher community need to dial that down, it's so often used it's meaningless. As a condition right around the time of the Rapture that might mean actual peace and security seems in sight for real - and because the Bible is ALWAYS centred on Israel with prophetic events, this means the phrase "Peace and Security" must be a phrase used with genuine expectation in ISRAEL at the time of the Rapture.

Agree. Some pastors, especially Mr Hawaii shirt wearing built his whole sermon yesterday around “peace and Security”.

 

[TCC]

With Russia stating today that the world nuclear powers who are friends with Iran {such as North Korea, China, Pakistan and Russia) are willing to to equip them with fully-functioning nuclear warheads, I see these efforts to control Iran leading swiftly to a world situation that is so dangerous, so on the point of all out nuclear war, that people will welcome with open arms a world leader who will promise world peace, drawing us all back from the brink of world nuclear war, and giving Israel the guaranteed peace it needs. I believe the world is about to see the initial appearance of the Antichrist.

I believe there is a non-proliferation agreement though. But I know during Trump 45, it would seem Russia and the US are no longer In a nuclear agreement. So you bring up an interesting point. I don't think Russia + would give nukes to Iran in the short term though, because that would surely bring American nukes on Russia to the forefront. Maybe if several countries do it together they feel protected in unity (like some world ministry). But it is a scary thought for sure with that Russian mention.

 

[TCC]

Agree. Some pastors, especially Mr Hawaii shirt wearing built his whole sermon yesterday around “peace and Security”

I would agree with Margery here too. Because it would appear that phrase is used a lot. During Trump 45 I heard it all the time. So for something to reach new hights with that phrase makes sense to me. Something to put it in more dramatic ways. And related hotly to Israel. Yes.

 

[TCC]

Agree with you. I don't think his conclusion is correct. "But his comment was like, "Iran cannot surrender because they have to be one of the leading nations in Ez 38."

Iran as Persia IS one of the main participants in Ezek 38. Surrender just means ceasing hostilities. Neither Israel or the USA have any interest in becoming an occupier of Iran.

That leaves them open to wanting some pay back to Israel- and when the opportunity arises, they will go in with Russia and Turkey along with the areas of North Africa and East Africa that Ezek mentions.

In fact this war simply sets up the conditions for Ezek 38.

I agree with your assessment here too:
he does not see a likely necessity for Iran to be pruned down to prove actual real (but limited and short) peace to authentic the time they need to be in in order for Ez 38 to occur to begin with. Chooch is usually more self aware. If our times are in this range, i could see him coming around.

If we are close to the Ezek 38 event, Israel does have to be living in real peace and security just because of where Ezek mentions they are living- in what is now known as the West Bank- they are living without walls or gates.

As for the often repeated Peace and Security phrase, I've been hearing that since I was a child. From the UN, from every "peacekeeping" initiative, from every war as it ended (and often as it began).

I think some of the prophecy watcher community need to dial that down, it's so often used it's meaningless. As a condition right around the time of the Rapture that might mean actual peace and security seems in sight for real - and because the Bible is ALWAYS centred on Israel with prophetic events, this means the phrase "Peace and Security" must be a phrase used with genuine expectation in ISRAEL at the time of the Rapture.

I've seen that happen a few times, generally around the times the various US presidents demand a 2 State Solution on Israel- that this time there will really be peace and security.

Because the Muslims can't help themselves, the "peace" is broken before the ink dries. Rinse and repeat.

So the phrase must have an additional element that actually looks better than all these previous failures. Not something that could actually be used to destroy immanency but something that when it finally happens, everyone sighs with relief. Then the Rapture. Then the exact opposite of Peace and Security.

Enter the current conflict which Israel is using to destroy and degrade all the surrounding Muslim haters. This might end up being peace and security. Or at the very least part of the path towards that Peace and Security.

Thanks Margery. Profound thoughts. Amen.

So there is a question that has been forming for me. And it has been asked in a different sort of way before. But not exactly this way. And with the "Peace and Safety" motif so front and center, I believe this is a good place to ask it.

What I mainly see in the watcher community seems by far to more to be the case, that when looking at the Middle East developments we are seeing these things develop as the beast system. I know you and I have exchanged quite a bit things leading to Ez 38 in ways and places. But I don't see that so much with the watcher community in general. It is alluded to, but the central focus seems far more to be on a beast system and coming AC.

And then there is "Peace and Safety." It seems what occurs is that peace and safety until recent developments in the middle east had been thought mostly upon the AC bringing false peace. I am aware there is a reference in Daniel to one using deception and we know the AC brings the covenant that won't last. And by breaking it, of course it looks like false peace there. As for that Daniel passage 8:25 and 11:23 passages we do see charactoristic of the AC. But it does not say he enters the world on the scene bringing false peace. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it would seem that the main place of deriving false peace aligned with the AC is from Rev 6:2? And I believe because seal 2 is war (or massive violent discord), it would be considered that the AC would have to bring false peace if Rev 6:2, because the next thing that happens is chaos.

But there really is no scripture that literally says when the AC comes he tricks the world with false peace. This seems to be more or less a settled upon axiom for our day. Peace and safety is not even mentioned in Rev 6:2. But it is mentioned in 1 Thes 5. And its not associated with a trickery after 3.5 years but a sudden destruction. The juxtaposion in that chapter is contrasted with the the children of the light not facing judgement on earth. The Day of the Lord (is how I understand that). So where we do see Peace and Safety literally mentioned though, it is associated with sudden destruction. Not necessarily deception, a contract, or a false peace even. Just a contrast that includes a pregnant woman in labor (which sounds very much like Israel). So it would seem that where Peace and Safety is mentioned in the bible, it is here in 1 Thes. And not out rightly with the AC, perse.

. . . . .

So my question would be: Would the watcher community see the events in the middle east as the beast system setting up as synomouse with Ez 38? And if the peace and safety there is associated with Israel dwelling in peace, would it also be understood thereafter another peace and safety false peace the AC provides on the wings of that? I ask because I don't see it with the AC. But I do see it with Ez 38. And these two events seems to share a focus at the eschatological table. So yeah, just wondering if the what the watcher community is saying is that the beast system build out is synonomous with Ez 38? It kind of looks like that is what we might be saying. But I have not heard it exactly articulated in this way. I hope the question makes sense. Thanks dear sister. Blessings.

. . . . .

Oh yeah...PS: I appreciate your mention of imminency. From the human standpoint I believe that is a respectful attitude toward His sovereignty. We can have so many eschatalogical fragments going on in our head and not be overly certain about how they all fit together. So it is good to have pause, amen. On this I guess I would have a follow up question. But first I would like to say that, for me, I have been believing as a believer for decades in the imminency of the rapture. But as we see so much development now in the middle east, 1 Thes 5 seems to ever stand out far more in mind these days. And although it does not come right out and say that rapture is right before sudden destruction, because of the pregnant woman mention there, I believe it to be that contrast.

So the way I would put it is: I believe that 1 Thes 5 (Rapture/Ez 38) contrast and see it more clearly than I would hold to imminency. Because if that is the prescribed time God has chosen, then that is that I guess. Deferring to however His sovereignty might have set it up. Imminent or at some appointed time somewhat alluded to also possibly in scripture.

Other than immimency being popular in evangelicalism, I'm not exactly sure why it would have to be imminent though. Yes, it would appear to be to us humans. And for us in how we are seeing it, perhaps that is actually true in a way like that. But let's just say for example if God raptured the church on the Eve of Ez 38, that would make a lot of sense. Because of how I see 1 Thes 5 does not mean that has to be what is going on in those passages. But if it were, then it would not be immimnet. But fixed. So with that I guess I would ask is it perceived to believe wrong doctrine to see imminency different? And with that I guess my follow-up question would be, what verses affirm absolute doctrine on that though? Other than it not being specifically tied to some other event (if 1 Thes 5 is not what i'm thinking it looks like), there does not seem to me to be a verse that says it could happen any time. Is there?

And I guess my last follow-up question on that would be: What Paul mentions in 1 Thes 4, some believe to mean Paul believed he would experience that in his lifetime. That might be true. But I have generally understood what he says there to be: Any of us believers on earth at the time of the rapture will go up in it when it occurs. Plus Paul is consoling believers who have lost loved ones. And so the context itself would seem to imply the import on those that already died (not on we are remain). Just in the context itself would imply not to be found a place where perhaps Paul might have thought he would be on of those remaining. Because the context is for those who come up out of the dead FIRST. It seems online there is some confusion that Paul might have thought the rapture to occur in his lifetime with this verse. But it does not seem to suggest that to me so much though. Ok well thanks again Margery. Just thought to ask. Blessings.

 

[Tall Timbers]

This is exciting stuff we are seeing. It isn't yet Jer 49 but it sure is looking a lot like a world getting ready for the AC and the AC's "peace" plan.

People get so excited trying to fit Scripture into current events. If a berean rains on that parade he/she's liable to be shunned a bit by previous buddies.

I can think of a wrong idea or two that developed in that way that became acceptable teaching for many.

 

[Margery]

I believe there is a non-proliferation agreement though. But I know during Trump 45, it would seem Russia and the US are no longer In a nuclear agreement. So you bring up an interesting point. I don't think Russia + would give nukes to Iran in the short term though, because that would surely bring American nukes on Russia to the forefront. Maybe if several countries do it together they feel protected in unity (like some world ministry). But it is a scary thought for sure with that Russian mention.

Putin views Israel as a largely Russian enclave. He's said in the past that he doesn't want harm to come to the Russian ex pat Israelis living there. I don't think he would give control of his nukes to anyone else, nor do any of his friends want to do that and anger America further. It's not really about the nukes. It's about drawing a line in the sand with the US and more importantly with NATO.

Russian ways of communicating don't always translate well to the West.

When Putin tells Medvedev to go talk about nukes, and giving nukes to Iran or other nameless countries have nukes to give to Iran- it's not actually about the nukes. It's about a very Russian way of saying I have limits and boundaries that you keep crossing, quit it or else. It's Russian for "I'm SERIOUS NOW, Cut that OUT or ELSE!" It's saying I'm thinking nuclear thoughts, so back off a bit won't you!

The fact he used Medvedev means he is serious, but not serious enough to use regular diplomatic channels to say I'm thinking NUKES now!- He's using Medvedev who is NOT inside the normal food chain of power in Moscow, but is in a special close position next to Putin. He is the person Putin trusts more than anyone else. Medvedev is often used as Putin's mouthpiece when Putin wants to say something direct and nasty without getting tangled up with Foreign Office or diplomats going back and forth.

It has little to do with Iran, and everything to do with the NATO summit that just started this morning in The Hague in The Netherlands.

It helps to see that Russia gets it's drones from Iran. Iran is helping Russia in the war in Ukraine. Russia is annoyed with interference in their supply chain.

Putin KNOWS that gets everyone's attention, fast. He's simply making a point and trying to get the West to back off and quit irritating him in his internal affairs (that is how he sees Ukraine- internal to Russia)

 

[Margery]

...So there is a question...

What I mainly see in the watcher community seems by far to more to be the case, that when looking at the Middle East developments we are seeing these things develop as the beast system. I know you and I have exchanged quite a bit things leading to Ez 38 in ways and places. But I don't see that so much with the watcher community in general. It is alluded to, but the central focus seems far more to be on a beast system and coming AC.

I think it's useful and interesting to see how the stage is being set for both Ezek 38 and the AC/beast system. The Middle East shifts and changes so fast, one moment it looks like Ezek 38 might happen next week, then something else happens and it's supposedly on hold.

Till it gets fulfilled.

Once that happens we will see how God fit it into the prophecy ahead of time, down to the last detail, but not in a way that any human or angel could have predicted, even knowing the prophecy as outlined in Scripture. God surprises people. The Jews were waiting for the Messiah, and even John the Baptist wondered and had to ask Jesus "are you He????" Looking back now, we see all the details- we get the big picture that John in the middle of it all was suddenly unsure of.

Because I think we are outta here before Ezek 38 and CERTAINLY before the AC comes out into public view- it's like sitting down to a big jig saw puzzle. Big chunks are filled in, but a lot is still missing. Israel is a nation again, but it's not all together in their control- like the Temple Mount or the Mountains of Israel aka Judea and Samaria aka The West Bank. Gaza too. Wars happen, Israel takes more land back then are forced to give it up, then get it back. The Golan Heights for example, Gaza, The "west bank".

There are pre conditions- things that HAVE to be in place before a prophecy is fulfilled- like Israel dwelling in peace and safety on the mountains of Israel aka the West Bank. That is a precondition for Ezek 38. Those kind of clues help us with the Jigsaw puzzle, but they don't tell us everything.

And then there is "Peace and Safety." It seems what occurs is that peace and safety until recent developments in the middle east had been thought mostly upon the AC bringing false peace. I am aware there is a reference in Daniel to one using deception and we know the AC brings the covenant that won't last. And by breaking it, of course it looks like false peace there. As for that Daniel passage 8:25 and 11:23 passages we do see charactoristic of the AC. But it does not say he enters the world on the scene bringing false peace. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it would seem that the main place of deriving false peace aligned with the AC is from Rev 6:2? And I believe because seal 2 is war (or massive violent discord), it would be considered that the AC would have to bring false peace if Rev 6:2, because the next thing that happens is chaos.

But there really is no scripture that literally says when the AC comes he tricks the world with false peace. This seems to be more or less a settled upon axiom for our day. Peace and safety is not even mentioned in Rev 6:2. But it is mentioned in 1 Thes 5. And its not associated with a trickery after 3.5 years but a sudden destruction. The juxtaposion in that chapter is contrasted with the the children of the light not facing judgement on earth. The Day of the Lord (is how I understand that). So where we do see Peace and Safety literally mentioned though, it is associated with sudden destruction. Not necessarily deception, a contract, or a false peace even. Just a contrast that includes a pregnant woman in labor (which sounds very much like Israel). So it would seem that where Peace and Safety is mentioned in the bible, it is here in 1 Thes. And not out rightly with the AC, perse.

I don't think the Peace and Safety thing is just one thing, at one time I think the AC may well use it. (looking at the passage of Isaiah for details talking about the covenant with death and Hades- it implies peace and safety via the contrast with this overwhelming scourge that is passing thru the lands. Israel makes a covenant with Death and Hades to avoid the overwhelming scourge. That suggests that the AC might be pretty nasty to those who don't make a covenant with him. Peace and safety might be conditional on whether you make a peace deal with him.

The passage in Daniel about the covenant with the Prince to Come where the Hebrew grammar implies that it involves a deal allowing the Temple to be built- that isn't my idea, but it is one that has been put forward by Hebrew language scholars. Both can be part of the deal that is signed between the AC and "the many" which is a Hebrew idiom for the people of Israel. In the Isaiah passage it describes a representative govt similar to the current parliamentary system in place in Israel today. Again, suggesting that peace for Israel is guaranteed by the AC, to the point that they are finally able to build their temple.

While Peace and Safety is mentioned as a phrase in 1 Thess 5:3 it's in context with the start of the Day of the Lord- which is the Tribulation period so given that prophecy revolves around Israel especially in the Day of the Lord- the context of the Day of the Lord suggests that this particular Peace and Safety would centre on Israel in that time. That is being written to Christians to reassure them that they are not going to be trapped by the Tribulation, they will be taken before that begins.

It is a clear description of what being left behind (in the Day of the Lord, or the Tribulation) will be like. This is so that the Christians Paul is writing to will be reassured that day hasn't begun yet. They haven't missed the Rapture. They are supposed to know (Paul had previously taught them) that the Day of the Lord begins like a thief in the night. So night falls, the Divine thief comes, takes away the Christians, those left behind are caught, trapped in the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation.

And the expectation that the left behind had was Peace and Safety, but sudden destruction is happening all round them.

@mattfivefour can give you a better understanding of that passage.

Daniel 11:23 was fulfilled in the past, it was Antiochus Epiphanes, a type of the AC.

Here is Enduring Word Bible Commentary Daniel Chapter 8 on the Daniel 8 passage. Both of them refer to the Antiochus, but also Antiochus is a type of the AC to come. When Jesus speaks of the Abomination of Desolation, He is referring to something yet future, but up till then the Jews only knew of one Abomination of Desolation, and this was when Antiochus set up an altar to Zeus and slaughtered a pig on it in the Holy of Holies.

From that we see that this is a person of intrigue. It's getting late, I'm getting tired so I'll quit here, but the idea that Peace and Safety is a single one time event and that 1 Thess 5:3 has to be simultaneous with other Peace and Safety passages might be stretching things a bit.

We don't know exactly what that sudden destruction after the expectation of Peace and Safety will consist of. It may be that the world loses all restraint as the Restrainer is taken up and Peace and Safety are taken away as the restraints are lifted and evil breaks loose all over.

I think in the after math of that sudden destruction the AC will come on the scene with plans for a "peace" but it will be conditional- if Isaiah 28 is talking about this covenant, then it looks like the same person that makes that agreement with Israel is busy causing "a scourge" and is called Death and Hades so there is the possibility that if Isaiah IS talking of this, that the AC is actually not very peaceful. He is able to guarantee peace to those who make covenants with him, and as for the rest, he is a scourge that can be called Death and Hades.

So my question would be: Would the watcher community see the events in the middle east as the beast system setting up as synomouse with Ez 38? And if the peace and safety there is associated with Israel dwelling in peace, would it also be understood thereafter another peace and safety false peace the AC provides on the wings of that? I ask because I don't see it with the AC. But I do see it with Ez 38. And these two events seems to share a focus at the eschatological table. So yeah, just wondering if the what the watcher community is saying is that the beast system build out is synonomous with Ez 38? It kind of looks like that is what we might be saying. But I have not heard it exactly articulated in this way. I hope the question makes sense.

I can't answer for the watcher community. And I think opinions within good theologians are split as to the timing of Ezek 38 whether it happens before or after the Rapture, and if after, how long after the Rapture- is it before the Tribulation starts with the covenant or is it after the covenant.

Whatever peace Israel hoped for with that covenant they sign with the AC won't be a lasting peace. He breaks the covenant in the middle, and sets himself up to be worshipped as God in the Holy of Holies at the midpoint. This wakes a lot of Jews up and the ones that already pay attention to Jesus know to flee to Petra.

So to answer that I don't know that the beast system is related to Ezek 38. It might be, depends on the timing of events.

Ezek 38 is God making Himself known among the nations, but especially among the Jews. That doesn't mean instantly, it might be a longer process filled with mistakes, like making that covenant with the AC.

Depends on if Ez 38 precedes the covenant with the AC that kicks off the Trib or comes after.

Andy Woods thinks that the peace and safety that Israel has dwelling without bars or gates in what is now known as the West Bank- might be because the covenant with the AC has already taken place. Not everyone agrees.

There are problems with that view- because then why would Israel continue to trust the AC after he didn't stop Russia, Iran and Turkey etc from invading?

If the peace that Israel enjoys just before Ezek 38 breaks out, is because she has already dealt with her near neighbours who hate her, as Bill Salus proposes, then the AC might take advantage of the destruction that God brings to Russia and company, with Russia's power bloc out of the way letting the AC rise to power in control of the Euro bloc or Rome 2.0

There a lot of different points of view, and they all have good points, and some flaws.

I think it's an ongoing discussion among good theologians.

I think it helps to look at the peace that Israel is dwelling in just before Ezek 38 as DIFFERENT from the peace and safety in 1 Thess.

Even though both seem to relate to Israel, they may relate to Israel at different times. I like to keep the timing open that way.

Just my opinion though.

Hope it helps.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

I can't answer for the watcher community. And I think opinions within good theologians are split as to the timing of Ezek 38 whether it happens before or after the Rapture, and if after, how long after the Rapture- is it before the Tribulation starts with the covenant or is it after the covenant.

Whatever peace Israel hoped for with that covenant they sign with the AC won't be a lasting peace. He breaks the covenant in the middle, and sets himself up to be worshipped as God in the Holy of Holies at the midpoint. This wakes a lot of Jews up and the ones that already pay attention to Jesus know to flee to Petra.

So to answer that I don't know that the beast system is related to Ezek 38. It might be, depends on the timing of events.

Ezek 38 is God making Himself known among the nations, but especially among the Jews. That doesn't mean instantly, it might be a longer process filled with mistakes, like making that covenant with the AC.

Depends on if Ez 38 precedes the covenant with the AC that kicks off the Trib or comes after.

Andy Woods thinks that the peace and safety that Israel has dwelling without bars or gates in what is now known as the West Bank- might be because the covenant with the AC has already taken place. Not everyone agrees.

There are problems with that view- because then why would Israel continue to trust the AC after he didn't stop Russia, Iran and Turkey etc from invading?

If the peace that Israel enjoys just before Ezek 38 breaks out, is because she has already dealt with her near neighbours who hate her, as Bill Salus proposes, then the AC might take advantage of the destruction that God brings to Russia and company, with Russia's power bloc out of the way letting the AC rise to power in control of the Euro bloc or Rome 2.0

There a lot of different points of view, and they all have good points, and some flaws.

I think it's an ongoing discussion among good theologians.

I think it helps to look at the peace that Israel is dwelling in just before Ezek 38 as DIFFERENT from the peace and safety in 1 Thess.

Even though both seem to relate to Israel, they may relate to Israel at different times. I like to keep the timing open that way.

Just my opinion though.

Hope it helps.

And then there is the very minority view that Ezekiel 38-39 has already started, and the US and/or Canada is the land of unwalled villages, with the people there living in safety.