@Margery -- Thanks Margery for your reply. Great historical reality check with Churchill.
And also thanks for considering that potential of ME peace. It seems to be something the watcher world has not considered. Which is puzzling in a way. Because even though we might have our favored views, I don't recall ever hearing that one. You? So something like that, where there is no path for that, might imply a rather huge blind spot...which is "perfect" muhahaha. Just playing. But it is kind of in the ways that I have noticed like the huge elephant in the room unnoticed -- Middle East peace talked about coming with antichrist...but also having a huge void/vacuum regarding such a potential like totally just right around the corner...lol. It almost seemss like identity disphoria...lol. Maybe our (speaking of me in this batch as well) version, a more sanctified version of inditity crisis. Where the world would become so loopy it be about gender, but on the sober side, maybe the church just does it with timing. Like seeing so much in prophecy coming we can't see so much right in front of us...kind of thing. Well it just seems a bit odd I guess.
So I really appreciate your going the extra mile to consider it. There are a few things we might see differently even in where we might agree. But it has slowly been a somewhat lonely path in my views on this sort of thing (ME peace coming). Recently I believe Tom Hughes hinted at something approaching a neighbor to that neighborhood. So it seems like as far as consideraing that option, we would be running underwater wearing a sandbag suit. But it looks like it is coming of age...however slowly. Of course if it is inaccurate, then um, nevermind...lol. Just very blessed that it makes some sense on some level. And you have your strong views but very well researched, informed, and innutitive...so seeing what I am saying to some degree, with all that, is a treasure.
Areas where we might differ in our alignments:
REVELATION 14
I would tend to see that language with Rev 14 (related to Noah's Day) as reaper language. Where a mass of angels grab people out of their environment and THEN bundle them (as described in Matthew 13:24–43). And Matt 24:31 to be the angels collecting believing Israel to come into the storehouse as wheat (thousand-year reign). I guess in a way there is a huge connection to Jesus informing the Jews of this parable originally, though.
NATION AGAINST NATION
Where I would suggest an Israel first approach to some of the prophecies like rumors of wars and wars and nation against nation...etc. In the beginning parts of Matthew 24 it would seem Jesus approach is to zoom out, zoom in, zoom out, zoom in -- throughout the chapter. Nation against nation would seem to me as WW1&2. Whereas it would demonstrate 2 world wars that move Israel toward the center stage. WW1 with removing the Ottoman Empire from the land. And ww2 on the wings of their start of a new nation SUPER SUPER HUGE. That should be something i believe more theologians could pick up on. And in a similar way, like not seeing peace in ME, I'm not sure why the WW1 and 2 view as "Israel as this generation" soil view (soil of "this generation" -- the one that comes out upon the scene from ww1 and ww2), never seem to enter a theological grid. So as one who is seeing a potential in ME (Middle East) peace potential, would it also make sense possibly that Matt 24 language about nation against nation have a climax point in the 2 world wars? I almost feel like it is illegal to say that by this time. But I just think it might have some super clustered low hanging fruit availability at the ready to go, "oh yeah." I mean world wars are a pretty huge historical moments to scratch the head and then forget kinda. So I have though another one like this that is similar too. Well thanks for reading and considering
But does'nt it seem odd though? Like something in the water? lol.
70 AD
In this i am reminded about very mainstream takes on Romans 9 and the vessels fitted for destruction. The biggest shift, I believe, in history, was 70 AD. And Romans 9:23 be considered to be about salvation in the minds of many. It was one of the hardest verses for me to understand beyond a reformed take. But the way i look at it now is an affirmation of God regarding 70 AD. The year of likely the most intense shift ever. And yet it would seem a Romans 9 serve as a backdrop to 70 AD even. Even as the book of Hebrews proclaims a warning for Jews not to miss the 70 AD transition like they missed the promised land. So vessels fitted for destruction would in that context very likely be Israel in unbelief. And 70 AD (compared to Pharoah's heart hardened, drowned in the Red Sea, like) be fulfilled only 15 years after Romans was written--the fulfillment of that passage "destruction.". I realize this is somewhat off topic. But germain to realize I reckon how Israel can slip through the cracks a bit I reckon. When we consider theological meaning.
I realize my views are different often but just wondering if you might see some of these other peculariities I've noticed as well.
. . . . .
You noted that you would not see much buying and selling going on in the end of the tribulation age. I used to think kind of that way too. But when we read Rev 18:9-20, that language seems far too colorfully full for it not to be somewhat mainstream perhaps? Bowl one ends the mark of the beast I believe. I don't believe we have seen material that covers what the tribulation looks like after bowl one and the mark of the beast has been judged...with 6 other bowls yet to come for the world. So in a way, the mark of the beast seems to have a very short life span. It would seem the people buying and selling in Rev 18 is in general connection with the world itself. And this period in time would likely have 0 mark of the beast buying and selling. But rather just normal buying and selling. Which, by the sound of it, might be anamatha to watcher eschatology...but does not scritpure itself show the quell of the mark? Thoughts on a Friday after noon...lol. You are a great treasure Margory to be able to speak in-depth, openly, and freely...knowing we won't agree on all points. But be well blessed in our differences in Him. Blessing.s
Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum explains in Footsteps of the Messiah (a wonderful book btw) that you are absolutely correct about the Nation against Nation Kingdom against Kingdom.
That is a Jewish Idiomatic expression meaning World War. In other words the times of the end would start at a time when the entire world was at war. WW1 which btw was how the Balfour Declaration came about - it granted the Jews their homeland which was then agreed on in the San Remo Conference both as a result of WW1.
When Jesus telescopes time it can be confusing. He goes from wars and rumours of wars- the time of "not yet" and then the Jewish idiom for world war. That is the beginnings of the birth pains.
It's not the Fig Tree (that would blossom at the end of WW2), but it is the time of the beginnings of the birth pains. Luke 21:29 says something a bit different than Matthew. here it is: 29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
Matthew only mentions the fig tree (Israel- one of her national symbols) but Luke includes AND ALL THE TREES. If a tree is a nation, and the fig is Israel who might "all the trees" be that COME BACK TO LIFE around that time?
The clue (I think) is the Ottoman Empire. When it dissolved in WW1 (birth pains began) there were some nations that roared back to life around the time of Israel. Jordan, Syria, Lebanon as well as Turkey, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. If Israel's "tree" began to put forth leaves, AND ALL THE TREES (her ancient enemies) also put forth THEIR LEAVES.
Suddenly God's nation springs back to life in 1948 and these other nations along with Egypt are ready to attack.
I would date the Fig Tree from the rebirth of Israel in 1948 but the time of the Birth Pains from the start of WW1 when the Ottoman Empire begins to dissolve.
For the most part I think the Olivet discourse whether Matthew, Mark or Luke - are MOSTLY for the Jews, for believing Israel within the Tribulation.
BUT NOT all.
just like the above.
Jesus gives a broad overview of time from the Cross (He mentions it in Luke 17) to the end of the Tribulation so it covers a lot of territory and goes back and forth a lot.
It's just that I think little tiny parts of it may have a slightly different time frame. They aren't all the same talks btw. They occur at different places and times if you look carefully. And they shoot back and forth in time. Luke 21 goes from talking about the Jewish diaspora in 70AD and shoots ahead in time to the end of the times of the Gentiles at the end of the Tribulation.
Look at the differences.
Chronologically it's like this:
Luke 17- the Pharisees ask about the coming Kingdom. He answers, then starts to talk privately with his disciples later about the Days of the Son of Man. He explains it would be like Noah and Lot's day. He gives some of the same signs that seem to relate to the church age ahead for the disciples and mentions the end of the Tribulation when He appears for all to see, then jumps back to the cross. He gives the illustration of Noah and Lot, then V 30-37 which are difficult whether you place them in the Tribulation or at the Rapture. This is the only one of the similar accounts that He discusses the Cross.
Then comes Luke 21 which starts out in the Temple with the widows Mite and goes on to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD but at v 24 the scene shifts forward in time. Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. The times of the Gentiles, where the Gentiles tread the Temple underfoot don't finish till the end of the Trib when Jesus comes back and reclaims the world but especially the Temple Mount and Jerusalem as HIS. Not to be confused with the fulness of the Gentiles that Paul speaks of in Romans 11:25
Luke 21:29 has that interesting inclusion of "and all the trees" alongside the fig tree. Luke often includes bits that are of interest to the Gentiles, he isn't speaking as directly to the Jews as Matthew does.
Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are almost identical. Mark leaves out Noah, but Matthew includes it. And both Matthew and Mark are the actual Olivet discourse. It occurs in time just after the discussion in the Temple from Luke 21. But they've walked away now, and Jesus continues to teach.
Matthew 24
Matt 24: 4-8 where He discusses the stuff before the Tribulation. From 9-31 are definitely Tribulation.
32-35 are the fig tree but unlike the Luke 21:29 this time it's just Israel, the Fig Tree. So does that mean that Luke includes the other trees because he includes the Gentiles a lot, while Matthew is directed at the Jews? I don't know but it's possible.
36-51 are another area of debate. The use of the Father knowing the time in v 36 seems to suggest this is the Rapture due to the bridal picture. Only my Father knows for sure was the standard response when people asked the Jewish bridegroom when his wedding would take place back in Jesus time. This is immediately followed by the days of Noah. Again I think because the people in the Trib will KNOW when Jesus is coming- it can be calculated to the day once that covenant is signed, this is another indicator that the days of Noah are referring to the time Jesus comes for His bride.
40-41 1 taken, 1 left could be either way. This I think is referring to the end of the Trib, but again, not sure. I like to keep an open mind on these difficult passages. There are good arguments on both sides.
vs 42-44 is the Thief in the Night passage. Seems to dovetail best with Paul's 1 Thess 5:1-4 again using that thief in the night. We are not of the night as Paul says so we are not surprised, but those of the night who aren't expecting the thief will be shocked. Sudden destruction awaits them, not us.
Mark 13 is a shorter recap of Matthew's version of the Olivet. Both Matthew and Mark are taught from the Mt of Olives but pick up the account as Jesus and the disciples are walking away from the Temple towards the Mt of Olives.
Getting down to Rev 18, the destruction of Babylon, towards the end, yes this is definitely a weak spot in my argument that the Tribulation won't be a time of widespread economic normalcy.
But I'd toss in the beginning of the Seals, Harm not the oil and the wine- the luxury goods are not to be harmed even when there is mass starvation setting in. Which suggests that for the world leader class, riches and wealth continue while the poor are oppressed to the point of death. And that would fit with Babylon and her trade in slaves and the emphasis at the first part of Rev 18 on luxury goods.
However you are quite right about the end of Rev 18 which talks of the voice of the bridegroom not being found in her. That is a very strong argument against my position.
My counter point to that would be that Babylon falls towards the end, but before the armies are massing around Jerusalem, and Armageddon. The believing remnant are hidden at Petra (Bosrah) or around the world in various places that the Lord will use to preserve the remnants of the Gentile nations to repopulate the Millennial kingdom.
But I'm not so set on it that I couldn't be persuaded that the Noah and Lot examples are about the Tribulation period.
Tensions in the world are very high.
