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Examining the Five Points of Calvinism

I’m glad that this worked out!

Hopefully your church can win them over. It’s funny how some people who claim they are Calvinists have no idea what they are talking about. Pastor Andy Woods is doing a series exposing Calvinism, and he used to think of himself as a Calvinist.
Mike and I decided to start watching this together last night!

My pastor also just called to talk and told me they only just found out within the last year. He shared that he still holds against Calvinism and made it clear with the husband that he has to uphold our beliefs in the group. This family is considering moving to Maine soon so it may no longer be an issue soon enough. They are still a lovely family and I made it clear I don’t hate them or anything but that we are disappointed that they hold to their false beliefs.
 
Andy Woods’ series is very good, but if I may I’ll recommend one resource that provided me the info I needed to resist my first Christian mentor who is Calvinist. If you haven’t read it, the book What Love is This? by Dave Hunt is a fast read. Most Calvinists have no clue who John Calvin was.
 
Andy Woods’ series is very good, but if I may I’ll recommend one resource that provided me the info I needed to resist my first Christian mentor who is Calvinist. If you haven’t read it, the book What Love is This? by Dave Hunt is a fast read. Most Calvinists have no clue who John Calvin was.
I believe it. I love Dave Hunt. I follow the Bearean Call and get their newsletter. Thank you, I’ll have to check the book out.
 
I believe it. I love Dave Hunt. I follow the Bearean Call and get their newsletter. Thank you, I’ll have to check the book out.
Cheeky I have that book and love it, although it's decades since I read it. FWIW if you have a kindle, the books on kindle are a lot cheaper than paper form- but the tradeoff is that you don't "own" the book and can't pass it on or loan it out.
 
Mike and I decided to start watching this together last night!

My pastor also just called to talk and told me they only just found out within the last year. He shared that he still holds against Calvinism and made it clear with the husband that he has to uphold our beliefs in the group. This family is considering moving to Maine soon so it may no longer be an issue soon enough. They are still a lovely family and I made it clear I don’t hate them or anything but that we are disappointed that they hold to their false beliefs.
From my experience, I was raised in Calvinism but did not know it for years. After many years in it, I came across things online that mentioned Calvinsim is of the devil. My view at that time was that it was the gospel. And it made me curious as to why people would say that. But those who said such things gave rants and not much substance. So my first year of investigation was a bit fuzzy. The deepest I could discover on the surface was that Spergeon had the same bad argument as my then Calvinist pastor. That we either believe that all of humanity is saved or we believe in limited atonement. Which I came to realize is a logical fallacy about atonement.

The next discovery was Charles Ryrie. An excellent study bible in the way it is laid out. But he wasn't fully Calvinistic. He believed in predestination doctrine as Calvinists do. But he did not believe in limited atonement. And he certainly did not believe in universal atonement -- that all of humanity is saved. So I found a thinking person...lol. That was my first year of research. After that I uncovered an avalanche. With Dr. Leighton Flowers, then with Kevin Thompson of Beyond the Fundamentals. Both of those have extensive work on YouTube. Of the two, the more exacting was Flowers. Thompson was more rugged though (and has started to delve into other topics of late).

The breakthrough moment for me years into research was Leighton Flowers 45 minute overview of Romans 9. For me back then, there would be no way Leighton could surpass Romans 9, I thought. But I gave it a try. What I discovered in listening to it was how richly the book of Romans was literred with Old Testament references. To such the extent now that I not only see Romans 9 in an entirely different light (to my huge surprise), but that Romans is actually a treatise of sorts on the testimony of God explaining how He could abandon the Jewish Old Testament covenant and give it to the gentiles. Which is somewhat ironic. Because it would seem that Romans, to me, was the reference guide explaining the meaning of 70 AD (Romans being a document coming within a few short 15 years prior to the destruction of the temple). In that historic context, Romans 9 shines like a chiselled gem transcending way beyond how Calvin saw it. I found that what Hebrews was in an attempt to pull Jews off of a feight train about to hit a brick wall (70 AD), Romans was its legal documenting treatise. Romans, a book the Calvinist worldview would primarily see as Paul to the gentiles ministry, became for me a divine explanation of the great divide about to historically take place. 70 AD. And in this way, would see Romans like an accompanying official document to be time capsuled with the siege of their temple in 70 AD. Amazing how brilliant that diamond glimmers in contrast to it just being seen in the reformed world as Paul's ministry to the gentiles in Rome. Amazing!!!.

. . . . .

I've been out of the Reformed perspective for about 7 years now. Ironically this came to full fruition around the time I was starting to notice end time things. 2017. During 2016 I did notice the Gotthard Tunnel celebration seemed to imply quite an evil age we were entering. But I did not get full steam into looking into end times till 2017. I have a lot of love for the reformed camp because I know it so well and deeply. And realize that Calvin made a great impact on the West. Part of our history in Western Christianity being a thing does have some significant roots via Calvin. This is kind of why we would find so many churches not reforemed but having no idea of what the doctrine of predistination actually is. And most American believers seeing Ephesians 1 as believers being elected in eternity past. I would say that is a pretty predominant view in most evangelical circles.

My best friend is actually a Calvinist...lol. You can imagine we have some pretty intense conversations. But he is very open to concerns with his reformed camp. At one point, he came dangerously close to being kicked out of his church because of his full throttled moment of clarity. An episode in his life where he saw the bilbe beyond Calvinisism. And became livid. As much as we had spoken over the years, this awening of his had nothing really to do with me. Even though we would hold no punches in discussion, because he worked at the church and finding work outside of it might be quite the challenge for his situation, I always encouraged him to be respectful to his elders and not cause a ruckus. Which sometimes he seemed to need to be reminded.

What I also discovered over time was that Calvinisim has hold of the internet. They are very tech savvy. And very groomed in their approaches of transforming churches into Calvinism. This would explain why it was so hard for me to get answers my first year researching. Plus I had limited time. But I have a great heart for the American Reformed camp because they are a part of my heritage. And just as I was saved being a Calvinist without realizing, I could see how it does not have to be a salvation issue. But it can, of course. I remember one time taking a long walk at night years ago crying to God hoping I was chosen. Then that night it dawned on me, "If I received Christ why am I so in doubt about being chosen from eternity past?" That conundrum was a sobering moment years before I would eventually navigate my way out of the Reformed laberynth.

. . . . .

I believe that the ONE THING God really wanted me to notice in my days in Calvinism was not so much the concern with bad doctrine. But all the more how real God is actively alive for me His creation providentially. As I look back, there would have been no way I could have been sharp enough theologically to climb out of what to me now just seems like a paperbag. But what God often reminds me of today is how sovereign He is over the whole thing (bad doctrine and all). Not in a reformed sense. Where they would believe every moment is inspired to occur as it does by God. But in the sense that God (nor His creation in Him), in His acting with us day-to-day, is actually all that touched all that much by bad doctrine. This may sound like heresy...lol..a bit. But I lived it though. And I am being completely honest.

What I mean by this is that if God knows we are stuck in some bad doctrine (which we never completely do no have), then really the most important thing (while we work our way in discipleship toward deeper and clearler crystal clear yearnings from His true heart in scripture) is realizing the transcendance of God always is in our moment. How He is available to us regardless. Because of who He is. What happened to me was that I was fighting bad doctrine back then with attitude. Thinking that when I arrive at better doctrine I will be more complete. Fighting for that with that Calvinist church. But to my shock as I look back now, what God has helped me to see is that what was far more important that how fast I get good doctrine is how robustly I might rise in the midst of confusion because of who my heavenly Father is. And as Hallmark Card like as that may sound, I saw God work in this way constantly. But at the time I was too thick to actually benefit fully from it. Always leaning back to undue bad doctrine.

In this I do not mean we should not strive for purity in doctrine. But this takes time. And all along the way people and circumstances are provided us in God's Providence. As God has provided good works in advance (per Eph 2) I think those are the things. Not "the works." But the understanding that God has provided for us a treasure trove of experience by which to better take hold of Him personally regardless of our state of maturity doctrinally. And it is that space that transcends bad or good doctrine. Had I that mature skill set 20 years ago, I believe I would be living in far more a plethora of those good work intentions God had as surprise packages awaiting me. To me, this is synomous in spiritual species with "the foolishness of the gospel." Like the sillyness of God just serving up 24/7 good works template for each of us by which to reap great reward in walking in Him now, and even more at His coming.

. . . . .

I would like to conclude this overview with something in the Calvnist vs non-Calvinist tension in evangelicalism today as it results to the day and age we live in end times like. It my surprise you, Cheeky, to understand that the greatest help in recent years I received a long the lines of dispensationalism (something typically Calvinisits are known for not being about or endorse) is from a channel on YouTube called: Theocast.

This channel over the years as I looked into how they parse a verse or section of scripture fascinated me greatly. There is a bit of irony here. Theocast provided for me (coming out of a long standing counterpart often to Calvinism--Lordship Savlation) the most robust understanding of Jesus discourses to the Jews in His day, and how that is best to be understood as per the old covenant as well as the context of what Christ was exactly addressing in His day. AND...how all of that blossomed into a very rich and deep profound sense upon the accuracy and soberness in the views of dispensationalism. So actually, Theocast, for me, had the most profound use of scripture to peel away Lordhsip Salvation confusion = a far deeper appreciate even toward dispensationalism. More than I had noticed anywhere else. And I have been at this a very long time. The irony is that Theocast is not only Calvnist, but Covenantalists. A very deep form of Calvinsim. Yet, clear enough to dispose of Lordship Salvation biblical. And attest to dispensationalism that other churches have not captured the sense of because perhaps of the lack of contrast they had not been exposed to Lordship Salvation. So in that sense, God, in my life, has used Calvinists to undo Calvinism. Because if we are looking for profound scriptural differences, even Calvninism cannot hold a candle to how God transcends.

How does that relate to end times? Well, I just mean that in the sense that just as God transcends bad doctrine in providing us always with good works prepared for us before hand to walk in (that transcends good, bad, and indifferent doctrine), so in like fashion might God also transcend how we might tend to make a template of eschatology we might be tempted to see has to be the way end times is going. The contrast? That we see God in His Providence TODAY define what He meant. Beyond our settled convictions on exactly how that might look today. Not that we should not have convictions. Not that we should not have referent end time templates. Just that part of how they are fulfilled probably involve God's personal providential living touch in the midst of it we might want to make "some" room for. What I noticed typically occuring in Evangelicalism regarding excatology is perhaps running at end times with too much of a template in mind to perhaps make best sense of how God in His living moment with us (His church) might in His deepest profound sense mean toward us and the rest of His creation also sharing this moment with Him, today. If that might make sense in how I am hopefully connecting what I see to be the importance of the living faith in Him. Hope this has some measure of edifying effect :) Blessings dear sister.
 
From my experience, I was raised in Calvinism but did not know it for years. After many years in it, I came across things online that mentioned Calvinsim is of the devil. My view at that time was that it was the gospel. And it made me curious as to why people would say that. But those who said such things gave rants and not much substance. So my first year of investigation was a bit fuzzy. The deepest I could discover on the surface was that Spergeon had the same bad argument as my then Calvinist pastor. That we either believe that all of humanity is saved or we believe in limited atonement. Which I came to realize is a logical fallacy about atonement.

The next discovery was Charles Ryrie. An excellent study bible in the way it is laid out. But he wasn't fully Calvinistic. He believed in predestination doctrine as Calvinists do. But he did not believe in limited atonement. And he certainly did not believe in universal atonement -- that all of humanity is saved. So I found a thinking person...lol. That was my first year of research. After that I uncovered an avalanche. With Dr. Leighton Flowers, then with Kevin Thompson of Beyond the Fundamentals. Both of those have extensive work on YouTube. Of the two, the more exacting was Flowers. Thompson was more rugged though (and has started to delve into other topics of late).

The breakthrough moment for me years into research was Leighton Flowers 45 minute overview of Romans 9. For me back then, there would be no way Leighton could surpass Romans 9, I thought. But I gave it a try. What I discovered in listening to it was how richly the book of Romans was literred with Old Testament references. To such the extent now that I not only see Romans 9 in an entirely different light (to my huge surprise), but that Romans is actually a treatise of sorts on the testimony of God explaining how He could abandon the Jewish Old Testament covenant and give it to the gentiles. Which is somewhat ironic. Because it would seem that Romans, to me, was the reference guide explaining the meaning of 70 AD (Romans being a document coming within a few short 15 years prior to the destruction of the temple). In that historic context, Romans 9 shines like a chiselled gem transcending way beyond how Calvin saw it. I found that what Hebrews was in an attempt to pull Jews off of a feight train about to hit a brick wall (70 AD), Romans was its legal documenting treatise. Romans, a book the Calvinist worldview would primarily see as Paul to the gentiles ministry, became for me a divine explanation of the great divide about to historically take place. 70 AD. And in this way, would see Romans like an accompanying official document to be time capsuled with the siege of their temple in 70 AD. Amazing how brilliant that diamond glimmers in contrast to it just being seen in the reformed world as Paul's ministry to the gentiles in Rome. Amazing!!!.

. . . . .

I've been out of the Reformed perspective for about 7 years now. Ironically this came to full fruition around the time I was starting to notice end time things. 2017. During 2016 I did notice the Gotthard Tunnel celebration seemed to imply quite an evil age we were entering. But I did not get full steam into looking into end times till 2017. I have a lot of love for the reformed camp because I know it so well and deeply. And realize that Calvin made a great impact on the West. Part of our history in Western Christianity being a thing does have some significant roots via Calvin. This is kind of why we would find so many churches not reforemed but having no idea of what the doctrine of predistination actually is. And most American believers seeing Ephesians 1 as believers being elected in eternity past. I would say that is a pretty predominant view in most evangelical circles.

My best friend is actually a Calvinist...lol. You can imagine we have some pretty intense conversations. But he is very open to concerns with his reformed camp. At one point, he came dangerously close to being kicked out of his church because of his full throttled moment of clarity. An episode in his life where he saw the bilbe beyond Calvinisism. And became livid. As much as we had spoken over the years, this awening of his had nothing really to do with me. Even though we would hold no punches in discussion, because he worked at the church and finding work outside of it might be quite the challenge for his situation, I always encouraged him to be respectful to his elders and not cause a ruckus. Which sometimes he seemed to need to be reminded.

What I also discovered over time was that Calvinisim has hold of the internet. They are very tech savvy. And very groomed in their approaches of transforming churches into Calvinism. This would explain why it was so hard for me to get answers my first year researching. Plus I had limited time. But I have a great heart for the American Reformed camp because they are a part of my heritage. And just as I was saved being a Calvinist without realizing, I could see how it does not have to be a salvation issue. But it can, of course. I remember one time taking a long walk at night years ago crying to God hoping I was chosen. Then that night it dawned on me, "If I received Christ why am I so in doubt about being chosen from eternity past?" That conundrum was a sobering moment years before I would eventually navigate my way out of the Reformed laberynth.

. . . . .

I believe that the ONE THING God really wanted me to notice in my days in Calvinism was not so much the concern with bad doctrine. But all the more how real God is actively alive for me His creation providentially. As I look back, there would have been no way I could have been sharp enough theologically to climb out of what to me now just seems like a paperbag. But what God often reminds me of today is how sovereign He is over the whole thing (bad doctrine and all). Not in a reformed sense. Where they would believe every moment is inspired to occur as it does by God. But in the sense that God (nor His creation in Him), in His acting with us day-to-day, is actually all that touched all that much by bad doctrine. This may sound like heresy...lol..a bit. But I lived it though. And I am being completely honest.

What I mean by this is that if God knows we are stuck in some bad doctrine (which we never completely do no have), then really the most important thing (while we work our way in discipleship toward deeper and clearler crystal clear yearnings from His true heart in scripture) is realizing the transcendance of God always is in our moment. How He is available to us regardless. Because of who He is. What happened to me was that I was fighting bad doctrine back then with attitude. Thinking that when I arrive at better doctrine I will be more complete. Fighting for that with that Calvinist church. But to my shock as I look back now, what God has helped me to see is that what was far more important that how fast I get good doctrine is how robustly I might rise in the midst of confusion because of who my heavenly Father is. And as Hallmark Card like as that may sound, I saw God work in this way constantly. But at the time I was too thick to actually benefit fully from it. Always leaning back to undue bad doctrine.

In this I do not mean we should not strive for purity in doctrine. But this takes time. And all along the way people and circumstances are provided us in God's Providence. As God has provided good works in advance (per Eph 2) I think those are the things. Not "the works." But the understanding that God has provided for us a treasure trove of experience by which to better take hold of Him personally regardless of our state of maturity doctrinally. And it is that space that transcends bad or good doctrine. Had I that mature skill set 20 years ago, I believe I would be living in far more a plethora of those good work intentions God had as surprise packages awaiting me. To me, this is synomous in spiritual species with "the foolishness of the gospel." Like the sillyness of God just serving up 24/7 good works template for each of us by which to reap great reward in walking in Him now, and even more at His coming.

. . . . .

I would like to conclude this overview with something in the Calvnist vs non-Calvinist tension in evangelicalism today as it results to the day and age we live in end times like. It my surprise you, Cheeky, to understand that the greatest help in recent years I received a long the lines of dispensationalism (something typically Calvinisits are known for not being about or endorse) is from a channel on YouTube called: Theocast.

This channel over the years as I looked into how they parse a verse or section of scripture fascinated me greatly. There is a bit of irony here. Theocast provided for me (coming out of a long standing counterpart often to Calvinism--Lordship Savlation) the most robust understanding of Jesus discourses to the Jews in His day, and how that is best to be understood as per the old covenant as well as the context of what Christ was exactly addressing in His day. AND...how all of that blossomed into a very rich and deep profound sense upon the accuracy and soberness in the views of dispensationalism. So actually, Theocast, for me, had the most profound use of scripture to peel away Lordhsip Salvation confusion = a far deeper appreciate even toward dispensationalism. More than I had noticed anywhere else. And I have been at this a very long time. The irony is that Theocast is not only Calvnist, but Covenantalists. A very deep form of Calvinsim. Yet, clear enough to dispose of Lordship Salvation biblical. And attest to dispensationalism that other churches have not captured the sense of because perhaps of the lack of contrast they had not been exposed to Lordship Salvation. So in that sense, God, in my life, has used Calvinists to undo Calvinism. Because if we are looking for profound scriptural differences, even Calvninism cannot hold a candle to how God transcends.

How does that relate to end times? Well, I just mean that in the sense that just as God transcends bad doctrine in providing us always with good works prepared for us before hand to walk in (that transcends good, bad, and indifferent doctrine), so in like fashion might God also transcend how we might tend to make a template of eschatology we might be tempted to see has to be the way end times is going. The contrast? That we see God in His Providence TODAY define what He meant. Beyond our settled convictions on exactly how that might look today. Not that we should not have convictions. Not that we should not have referent end time templates. Just that part of how they are fulfilled probably involve God's personal providential living touch in the midst of it we might want to make "some" room for. What I noticed typically occuring in Evangelicalism regarding excatology is perhaps running at end times with too much of a template in mind to perhaps make best sense of how God in His living moment with us (His church) might in His deepest profound sense mean toward us and the rest of His creation also sharing this moment with Him, today. If that might make sense in how I am hopefully connecting what I see to be the importance of the living faith in Him. Hope this has some measure of edifying effect :) Blessings dear sister.
I struggled to read all of this but I enjoyed reading the beginning about your journey out of Calvinism. The large blocks of text make my eyes struggle to follow.

I did skip around a bit but I appreciate your testimony thoroughly. Andy Woods does a great job of breaking apart this false doctrine in his current videos on Neo Calvinism. I highly recommend it.
 
Romans 9 shines like a chiselled gem transcending way beyond how Calvin saw it. I found that what Hebrews was in an attempt to pull Jews off of a feight train about to hit a brick wall (70 AD), Romans was its legal documenting treatise. Romans, a book the Calvinist worldview would primarily see as Paul to the gentiles ministry, became for me a divine explanation of the great divide about to historically take place. 70 AD. And in this way, would see Romans like an accompanying official document to be time capsuled with the siege of their temple in 70 AD. Amazing how brilliant that diamond glimmers in contrast to it just being seen in the reformed world as Paul's ministry to the gentiles in Rome. Amazing!!!.
Really well written. I often skip over the longer posts anyone takes time to write, but I wanted to thank you for this.

Yes, Leighton Flowers does a great job tearing Calvinism apart while keeping them as brothers.

Andy Woods is good too.

@TCC I love your description of the Holy Spirit teaching us :amen:
 
I struggled to read all of this but I enjoyed reading the beginning about your journey out of Calvinism. The large blocks of text make my eyes struggle to follow.

I did skip around a bit but I appreciate your testimony thoroughly. Andy Woods does a great job of breaking apart this false doctrine in his current videos on Neo Calvinism. I highly recommend it.

Thanks for trying. And thanks for reading Cheecky. I agree. I have benefited a lot from Andy Woods takes on that. What I was sharing might be helpful to check out some other time. What you have in all of that is 25 years of really identifying with your concerns. And what we see as concern in the church today. Much blessings dear sister. :) And again, yes Andy holds no punches. Very good videos. I think as I recall it is a set of 6? One thing I found helpful too, that I got traffic citation in one time at JDF (Farag's former forum)...lol. Literally pulled over for error, is his series on the Partial Rapture Theory. I believe there are six of those too. Not related to Calvinism exactly. But the man's hermeneutics there totally schooled me well. In front of the whole forum no less...lol. By the grace of God go I :) Blessings.
 
Really well written. I often skip over the longer posts anyone takes time to write, but I wanted to thank you for this.

Yes, Leighton Flowers does a great job tearing Calvinism apart while keeping them as brothers.

Andy Woods is good too.

@TCC I love your description of the Holy Spirit teaching us :amen:
Wow. Thanks so much for that Hol. I am so glad it resonates. I know sometimes I am not the easiest to follow. Always working on that. When I went to Jr. College, I tested out as needing English as a Second Language. Even though it is my first. Putting sentences together. Then on to the paragraphs class, English 101, 102, +. Its been a struggle all my life. I am light years away from where I was. But have still much room to improve.

Aside from the writing and reading though, I am really glad that the contrast I was painting between theology and knowing God personally came across. :) Blessings.
 
Its been a struggle all my life.
Hey brother, I’m a firm believer that our language during the Millennium will be Hebrew. I’ve taken 6-months training and still barely know my aleph-bet (ABCs).

I’m not multilingual, but many languages are much more reasonable than English. For an example, in English we may say, ‘The tea is on the table,’ and in Russian, ‘Tea on table.’ English language rules are ridiculous.

Anyhow, Hebrew is a language of meaning, context and poetry. English is ideal for attorneys and Calvinists. Before I got saved in 2008 I had to read, edit, and write lots of legal proposals, arguments, discussions, and depositions; even budgets for Fed appropriations. Once I was saved I was quickly drawn to ligioners (sp) logical theological word worm holes. Deeply intellectual?, deeply logical?, yes. Having never heard of Calvinism it was clear after a few months that it appealed to my arrogance and expertise in English.

You’ll love Hebrew and I think your expressions through words will be meaningful poetry.
 
The townsfolk of that story are a lot like the Calvinists. They see one person with the father’s gift and believe that shows his love for that son. And they see the other son without a gift and presume that is because the father has not chosen to bless that son. But the simple fact is the father had given the same gift to both sons. One chose to accept it; the other chose to reject it. End of story. The views of the townfolk were in error.

Great story.
 
That is how Calvinists often operate. Instead of hanging with their own, instead of converting the lost and creating their own church, they infiltrate our fellowships by stealth, draw people into their error and split congregations- often taking over a congregation.
That's what they did to my church. I no longer go to any of them because I cannot abide with their teachings or their rules and regulations required to attend.
 
That's what they did to my church. I no longer go to any of them because I cannot abide with their teachings or their rules and regulations required to attend.
Mary can I just say what a JOY it is to see you again. I just came on, to this! You made my day dear heart, I am so glad to see your smile again! I will go see if we've done a welcome thread for you and if it's already there, properly welcome you but oh my, what a joy!

Love
Margery
 
This thread is very enlightening and profitable for teaching! Adrian's study at the beginning is a rightly divided Word of God interpretation for sure. I never had the word for what I believed my whole life... "proportional theology" in the context of Calvinism. I had quite a discussion a month ago with a dear "TULIP" based friend, this teaching gives me a fresh approach to use when the time is right with him.
 
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