Elam

[Grace]

Jer 49,38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.

Dear Forum Family.

I am currently studying the Old Testament again, and I would like to understand this passage. I have read several commentaries on it, but have not really found an answer. I would be very interested in your thoughts on this verse, especially since I think the prophecy about Elam is still pending.

Quick note: A few months ago Worthy News reported that countless Iranians are coming to faith in the Lord Jesus. So here are my thoughts:

1. Is this verse to be understood literally, i.e. is the throne really set there?
2. Is this verse to be understood spiritually, i.e. that many acknowledge the Lord Jesus as Lord?
3. Is this verse to be understood symbolically, pointing to the beginning of the tribulation when the Lord will have dominion over all?
   
   Please take your time with the answer; also hints for good commentaries on this verse are welcome!
   
   Thank you in advance for your attention!

 

[Tall Timbers]

In John Walvoord's book, "Every Prophecy of the Bible", referring to Jeremiah 49:34-39 he says:

The prophecy concerning Elam referred to an area east of Babylon, known today as Iran. The destruction of Elam was described as breaking her bow, for, like Kedar, Elam was noted for archery. The complete destruction of Elam does not seem to have been fulfilled in history and may have its final chapter in the future in connection with judgments at the second coming of Christ. Elam was promised, however, restoration (v. 39).

Arnold Fruchtenbaum in his book, "Footsteps of the Messiah", says this with regards to the Jeremiah 49:34-39 passage:

Although Persia or Iran (ancient Elam) is not an Arab state by a Persian one, its future will be examined here because it shares the same religion (Islam) with the Moslem Arabs.

Peace will come between Israel and Iran by means of destruction, according to Jeremiah 49:34-39. In verses 34-38, Jeremiah described the destruction of Elam, with the inhabitants being completely dispersed all over the world. But then verse 39 declares: But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring back the captivity of Elam, says Jeremiah.
The destruction of Iran will be partial, and the dispersion will be temporary. Eventually the inhabitants will return and resettle Iran. The future of Iran is similar to that of Egypt, but the length of time they will be in dispersion is not revealed.

So peace will come between Israel and Iran via destruction, dispersion, and then a conversion and a return. There will be a saved nation of Elam (Persia or Iran) in the Kingdom.

Is this verse to be understood literally, i.e. is the throne really set there?

I suspect that His throne being set there indicates a conversion of the Elam people to Christ. As Arnold indicates, a timeline for this is not revealed.

 

[mattfivefour]

The problem with the classical commentators is that they could not imagine a day when Israel was a nation once again in its God-given land and Elam was so powerful as to threaten its existence yet again. So, we get commentaries that view this prophecy in Jeremiah 49:37-39 as relating to events that occurred 80 years after Jeremiah gave it. Here an example of that view taken from Joseph Benson's (1749-1821) Commentary of the Old and New Testaments:

"If we consider what is said in the foregoing verse to relate to Nebuchadnezzar, this may be understood of Cyrus’s setting them free from the Babylonish yoke; for we find from Isaiah 22:6, that the Elamites assisted Cyrus in the conquest of Babylon; and Shushan, the chief city of Elam, was made the metropolis of the Persian empire."​

Given the inability to understand that Israel would once again become a nation and the states around her would be her mortal enemies, it is not surprising that all commentators before our time would be inaccurate in their interpretation of end times scripture. But that is one classical view. The other is summarized by John Gill (1697-1771) in his redoubtable Exposition of the Bible:

"that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the Lord: was accomplished in a spiritual sense, when some of these people, the Elamites, were converted to Christ, and delivered by him from the captivity of sin and Satan, and were brought into the glorious liberty of the children of God; (Acts 2:9)"​

Now, we know that prophecies often have more than one fulfillment. So, I suppose those could be considered as first and second fulfillments of Jeremiah's prophecy. However, I believe what God said through Jeremiah relates to a greater fulfillment yet to come. Starting at verse 35 we read:

"35 This is what the LORD of Hosts says: 'Behold, I will shatter Elam’s bow, the mainstay of their might. 36 I will bring the four winds against Elam from the four corners of the heavens, and I will scatter them to all these winds. There will not be a nation to which Elam’s exiles will not go. 37 So I will shatter Elam before their foes, before those who seek their lives. I will bring disaster upon them, even My fierce anger,' declares the LORD. 'I will send out the sword after them until I finish them off.'​

​

This is self-explanatory. God will indeed do all He says. And it may well be fulfilled as a result of Iran's actions under its current leadership. So, incredibly, we ourselves may actually see this come to pass! But that's not all. God concludes the word of His coming judgement through the prophet--

"38 'I will set My throne in Elam, and destroy its king and officials,' declares the LORD."​

--which words cause some to conclude that Christ will set up his throne in Elam. But that's not necessarily what it says. I believe the phrase "set my throne" is a Hebraism meaning "to exert complete control". Therefore this verse is referring to the fact that God will exert complete control over Elam (Iran), and as a result even its "king and officials" (today known as the ayatollahs and the mullahs) will be destroyed. Knowing what we know today, this could well refer to the elimination of Islam in Iran! Following which, we see God's trademark mercy on display--

39 "'Yet in the last days, I will restore Elam from captivity,' declares the LORD."​

How awesome is our God! Even in judgment He displays grace. He loves to shower mercy on those He chastens. Glory to His Name!

Anyway, that's how I understand this passage.

 

[Grace]

Arnold Fruchtenbaum in his book, "Footsteps of the Messiah"

Excellent commentary by Fruchtenbaum. Thank you for that! Also for your effort to find it!

I suspect that His throne being set there indicates a conversion of the Elam people to Christ. As Arnold indicates, a timeline for this is not revealed.

From what I've read in recent months about the many conversions there, this could actually be part of the fulfillment!

 

[Grace]

So, incredibly, we ourselves may actually see this come to pass!

Yes, I too am convinced that we will see at least part of it - and the rest from our heavenly balcony, or when we come back to earth with our Savior at the end of the tribulation.

Therefore this verse is referring to the fact that God will exert complete control over Elam

This answer immediately clicked for me, because if you enter “throne” into the search function of the Bible program and compare similar passages, exactly what you say comes up. Thank you for your good research. We are witnessing prophecy beginning to be fulfilled before our eyes!

 

[Batman]

Elam in the Bible being fulfilled or not today or anytime before or during the trib may be up for debate, but their evil deeds and DNA-like love of a false religion will still result in individual by individual lost souls being judged after they pass.

 

[Matthew6:33]

but their evil deeds and DNA-like love of a false religion

Especially their corrupt leaders but many people in Iran are turning from the Islam falsehood.

 

[Grace]

Yesterday I had another thought on this subject. We have “blocks” in various prophets listing the enemies of Israel, e.g. in Isaiah, Amos, Ezekiel, Zephaniah, and also in Jeremiah. At present, the focus is primarily on Elam. But if you read from chapter 46 onwards, other nations are listed, including several that are relevant in these days. We know that there are prophecies that have been partially fulfilled at the respective time, but which only have a final fulfillment at the end of days. - To what extent this is the case for the other nations mentioned in chapters 46-49, I have not yet been able to find out. In other words, it would be interesting to find out which of the prophecies relating to the other nations (apart from Elam) are still open. Perhaps one of you has an idea.

 

[Margery]

I'll throw something into the Elam conversation. A while back I heard an interesting take about God placing or setting His throne in Elam (the OP verse) and the person (I think it was either Michael Heiser or Ken Johnson and I'm leaning to Heiser but I cannot remember exactly

said something on the order of this.

In the ancient near east - time of Ezekiel etc -- the habit of a conquering king was to set his throne in prime location of the conquered kingdom for all to see. He would have the kings brought and executed before him. He was said to be setting up his throne there.

So that doesn't eliminate the possibility that there is a future for Elam as a nation that God has a special relationship with but it does add another possibility that God is saying from this time forth, I rule over this place without any possibility of revolt or return to the previous ownership.

I think Alexander the Great may have done this when he took over but it's all a bit foggy in my memory.

Just a rabbit trail to consider.

Yesterday I had another thought on this subject. We have “blocks” in various prophets listing the enemies of Israel, e.g. in Isaiah, Amos, Ezekiel, Zephaniah, and also in Jeremiah. At present, the focus is primarily on Elam. But if you read from chapter 46 onwards, other nations are listed, including several that are relevant in these days. We know that there are prophecies that have been partially fulfilled at the respective time, but which only have a final fulfillment at the end of days. - To what extent this is the case for the other nations mentioned in chapters 46-49, I have not yet been able to find out. In other words, it would be interesting to find out which of the prophecies relating to the other nations (apart from Elam) are still open. Perhaps one of you has an idea.

YES, back on another forum (long ago and far away on another forum) I was part of a fun thread in which we were comparing the different nations, who popped up in Psalm 83, Ezek 32 from v 17 when a new vision begins to the end (very instructive), Jeremiah 49 with the exception of Kedar and Hazor because they were said by the prophet to be fulfilled under Nebuchadnezzar which they were, Isaiah 17, and Amos.

Zephaniah and Obadiah should really have had parts added too. I need to dig back in.

Because if you consider the possible relationships there is a lot of overlap in there. Not as much with Ezek 38

So I've thought that list (excluding Ezek 38 for reasons I'll get to) is a larger over view of what might be called the Damascus event and the Psalm 83 war.

You have a tremendous overlap, you have MOTIVE galore and each passage gives more detail and seems to dovetail with the others. I look at Ezek 32 and Jeremiah 49 as the map with details from Isaiah 17, Psalm 83 and possibly Amos as more of the puzzle pieces.

When you chart it out- some of the ones like Damascus aren't mentioned, but Syria is. Or bits of Jordan are mentioned. It's a big puzzle. it all fits, but we have to look carefully and even then God hands us surprises when we get too comfy in our theory or idea of how it will all work.

I think that Isaiah 17/Ezek 32/Jeremiah 49 are the starter pistol, setting things up for the Ezek 38 invasion (I hesitate to call it a war, because it looks like God ends it before it really gets going)

and I think that both these events occur after the Rapture but at some point either before or just inside the Tribulation keeping in mind that the Tribulation doesn't start with the Rapture but rather with the signing of the covenant that both Daniel and Isaiah outline.

So maybe there's a gap, between the Rapture and the signing, but if so we have no clue how long or even if one exists.

I think that way because of the wording in both Isaiah 17 and Ezek 38- God's purposes for Israel and the fact that He also wants to make Himself known among the Gentiles- well if we were still here, He IS known, well known among the western gentile nations for that matter and even among nations like Iran/Elam/Persia there are MANY christians there.

So I lean to the idea that due to the wording, the Christian segment of all these gentile nations are gone, missing and God is making Himself known in a new way to a bunch of unbelievers both Jew and Gentile (the Jewish believers having left in the Rapture with the Gentile believers).

I'm a big fan of Chuck Missler who loved to zero in on details. Details matter. God didn't include everything He could have in the Bible, just exactly what He wanted, so every jot and tittle is there for a reason.