The Great Flood

[Goodboy]

The Great Flood

Is Genesis Chapter 7 confusing? Let’s look at the verses and see what the Bible is saying.

Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
*** God is inviting Noah and his family into the Ark that Noah has built because God has seen him as righteous. At this point God has not told Noah when to enter the Ark, just that he has been invited. It would be like inviting someone into your home as a hurricane is on the way, but don’t expect them to enter until right before the hurricane.

Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Genesis 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
*** God is instructing Noah what animals he should bring into the Ark.

Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
*** God is telling Noah that he will destroy the earth with rain in 7 days.

Genesis 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
Genesis 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
Genesis 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
Genesis 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
Genesis 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
*** The Bible is stating how old Noah was in years and that he obeyed the Lord.

Genesis 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
*** The Bible states like Genesis 7:4 that it is now 7 days after God’s instructions to Noah and the flood has started.

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
*** The Bible states Noah’s exact age and the same day when the flood started and how long the flood lasted. It also, says that this was the exact same day that Noah and his family entered the Ark.

Genesis 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Genesis 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
Genesis 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Genesis 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Genesis 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Geneis 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

*** The Bible now explains more about the process of things after the flood started including how long the flood lasted.

Hope this is helpful.

Goodboy

 

[Goodboy]

Here are two verses that state that both Noah entered the Ark the same day as the flood came and Lot left the same day Sodom was destroyed, for those who are still not sure.

Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

I was not looking for these verses, but today a Pastor was teaching on the Rapture and mentioned them. I love when God just gives me scripture I may need without me even looking for or requesting it.

 

[Kaatje]

The big question is whether the flood was global or regional.

Not so big a question. Quite simple even. The Bible says straight out it was global.

Gen. 7
And the flood‭ was forty‭ days‭ upon the earth‭; and the waters‭ increased‭‭, and bare up‭‭ the ark‭, and it was lift up‭‭ above the earth‭.‭ ‭And the waters‭ prevailed‭‭, and were increased‭‭ greatly‭ upon the earth‭; and the ark‭ went‭‭ upon the face‭ of the waters‭.‭ ‭And the waters‭ prevailed‭‭ exceedingly‭‭ upon the earth‭; and all the high‭ hills‭, that ‭were‭ under‭ the whole heaven‭, were covered‭‭.‭ ‭Fifteen‭‭ cubits‭ upward‭ did the waters‭ prevail‭‭; and the mountains‭ were covered‭‭.‭

 

[Margery]

The big question is whether the flood was global or regional.

The biggest question is if it was regional, why didn't people and animals retreat to a high mountain. Because there's no need for an Ark to save reproducing couples (and more than 2 for some animals) plus the 8 people if you can just walk up a tall mountain or hillside and wait it out.

On the contrary the geologic features all over the earth show signs of catastrophic flooding even on the high mountain ridges (which were folded up as the tectonic plates moved and shifted towards the end of the deluge).

 

[Muckah]

Not so big a question. Quite simple even. The Bible says straight out it was global.

Gen. 7
And the flood‭ was forty‭ days‭ upon the earth‭; and the waters‭ increased‭‭, and bare up‭‭ the ark‭, and it was lift up‭‭ above the earth‭.‭ ‭And the waters‭ prevailed‭‭, and were increased‭‭ greatly‭ upon the earth‭; and the ark‭ went‭‭ upon the face‭ of the waters‭.‭ ‭And the waters‭ prevailed‭‭ exceedingly‭‭ upon the earth‭; and all the high‭ hills‭, that ‭were‭ under‭ the whole heaven‭, were covered‭‭.‭ ‭Fifteen‭‭ cubits‭ upward‭ did the waters‭ prevail‭‭; and the mountains‭ were covered‭‭.‭

Some of the giants survived the flood. How do you explain that?

 

[Kaatje]

Some of the giants survived the flood. How do you explain that?

The giants were the offspring of Ham's son Canaan.
I did a study on this some years ago. I'll post it here.

Genesis 6:4
There were Nephilim in the earth in those days; and also after that....

Numbers 13:3.
And there we saw the Nefilim, the sons of Anak, who come from the Nefilim; and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Anak can, but doesn’t have to be, a name. The word “anak” means “giant” in Hebrew, so it could be translated as giant people or giant beings.
(Compare to son of Adam - human being)

So it seems that while the Flood wiped out all the Nefilim and their offspring, some of their DNA survived. If you look at the lineage of Shem, Ham and Japheth, you see where the tribes of the Giants come from.

The lineage of the post-flood giants can be traced specifically to three of Ham’s sons, Cush, Mizraim and Canaan.

And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim, And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim. – Genesis 10:13-14.

In verse 14 we have the first mention of the Phillistines (whose forefather was Phillistim), the nation of the giant Goliath. Calshuhim was the father of Phillistim and his family later resided in Capthor in the Promised Land. So we see the direct origins of the Philistines, one of the most heated enemies of the Israelites, who also carried the Nephilim gene.

And Mizraim begat Ludim, And Canaan begat Sidon his first born, and Heth, And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite, — Genesis 10:14-16.

The Jebusites, the Amorites and Gegusites (all cousins of Nimrod), are mentioned time and time again with reference to the Israelites capturing the Promised Land. These families were usurpers in the Promised Land and carried the Nephilim gene. This is why God instructed the Israelites to deal mercilessly with these nations.

When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. — Deuteronomy 7:1-3.

Notice that God describes these nations as “greater and mightier than thou” to the Israelites. The physical and military advantage was clearly on the side of the enemies of God – the nations that were home to the Nephilim giants. But what gave the Israelites the ultimate edge was that The Lord Himself was going to supernaturally intervene early on in the conflict to deliver the enemies of Israel so they could be defeated.

 

[Kaatje]

Literal six-day creationist tell us Noah put dino on the ark.

I believe it was regional.

Dear Muckah, please read our Scriptural truths and posting rules.

• All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16) Therefore it is inerrant and must be our only instruction and guide—in our daily lives…and on this board. (Romans 15:4)

 

[Margery]

Some of the giants survived the flood. How do you explain that?

they didn't. The Bible states quite clearly that all airbreathing animals and people (apart from whales and other cetaceans) perished in the flood. The notation by Moses saying "and also after that" refers to a second outbreak of giants after the Flood. A minority view takes the position that one of the wives of one of the sons (Ham's wife is a popular candidate) carried "Nephilim" genes onto the Ark but then the purpose of the Ark would be void if the giants were to pollute the bloodline of Noah and his descendants.

In Genesis 6:9 the phrase that Noah was "perfect in his generations" comes from a term in Hebrew
תָּמִים

tâmı̂ym

taw-meem'

From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

which relates to genetics - the perfection is not morally perfect (Noah was a sinner as we all are) but perfect in his generations - the next Hebrew term

דֹּר דּוֹר

dôr dôr

dore, dore

From H1752; properly a revolution of time, that is, an age or generation; also a dwelling: - age, X evermore, generation, [n-]ever, posterity.

which together form a term that relates to genetics.

Since the whole chapter of Genesis 6 relates to genetic tampering -this in context means perfect in his posterity- his descendants.

That begs the question why would God wipe out all living things other than Noah and his 3 sons and their wives only to find out that one of the wives was carrying a gene from the Nephilim.

If you look at the mathematics of genetics and the necessary interbreeding from these 6 breeding individuals (Noah and his wife didn't reproduce after the Flood) then the bloodline of the Messiah would be contaminated.

Satan wouldn't have any need for the giants in the land of Canaan that Moses comments on "and also after that" in the same chapter- Genesis 6:4 BECAUSE his job of contamination - introducing a non human gene into the bloodline would be complete by introducing a Nephilim gene onto the Ark.

In fact he tried again after the Flood.

Goliath of Gath is one of the cases in point. Og King of Bashan is another. They existed. God commanded Israel to wipe them out utterly. Israel didn't and the areas they didn't wipe out in Joshua's conquest are problem territories even without the giants.

There are a number of non Biblical theories about where the giants went, what happened that I don't want to get into as that doesn't have much to do with the point of Genesis 6 namely that there were 2 attempts - before and after the Flood to contaminate the blood line of the Messiah.

The 2 important features are that Noah's genes are pure and that there were not one but 2 incursions of giants, before and after the Flood.

How the second incursion was done isn't outlined in Scripture but it does appear to have genetic tampering in both incursions because when giants are discussed, their bloodlines are mentioned - Goliath and his brothers for example.

 

[Kaatje]

How the second incursion was done isn't outlined in Scripture but it does appear to have genetic tampering in both incursions because when giants are discussed, their bloodlines are mentioned - Goliath and his brothers for example.

I have a theory on how the Giant DNA survived (but not dogmatic about it).

In Gen. 9 we read that Noah got drunk and that Ham saw his father's nakedness.
There is a possibility that this was an euphemism for saying Ham slept with Noah's wife.
Ham is even proud of what he did, he boasts about his feat to his brothers.
(Btw, the Bible never says Noah's wife is the mother of Noah's sons.)

If Noah's wife's DNA was corrupted and Ham slept with her,
that could be the reason why Noah curses Canaan instead of Ham.
Because now, through Canaan, the polluted DNA could spread once more.
And in my post upthread you see how the Giant DNA spread through the generations.

I don't think Satan tried for a second time to pollute the human DNA.
Because God imprisoned the fallen angels who committed this evil sin,
so that the other fallen angels would not do the same (as described in Jude 6).

 

[Andiamo]

I can see this isn't the place for me. goodbye!

Muckah, do you not believe that the Bible is the word of God?
Is Jesus Christ your Savior?
Do you believe that Christ Jesus is the only Truth, the only Door to God, and the only Way to be saved?

 

[Margery]

I have a theory on how the Giant DNA survived (but not dogmatic about it).

In Gen. 9 we read that Noah got drunk and that Ham saw his father's nakedness.
There is a possibility that this was an euphemism for saying Ham slept with Noah's wife.
Ham is even proud of what he did, he boasts about his feat to his brothers.
(Btw, the Bible never says Noah's wife is the mother of Noah's sons.)

If Noah's wife's DNA was corrupted and Ham slept with her,
that could be the reason why Noah curses Canaan instead of Ham.
Because now, through Canaan, the polluted DNA could spread once more.
And in my post upthread you see how the Giant DNA spread through they generations.

I don't think Satan tried for a second time to pollute the human DNA.
Because God imprisoned the fallen angels who committed this evil sin,
so that the other fallen angels would not do the same (as described in Jude 6).

Dr Ken Johnson brings up that very euphemism in one of his lectures as a possibility so you may have something there. Not dogmatic about my outline either. One of the weak points of my outline is the imprisonment in Jude 6. There are some who argue for ongoing genetic tampering (UFO abductions etc) that has increased since 1948 and Israel becoming a nation again. Which brings that intriguing passage in Daniel 2:42 &43 about the descendants in the ten toes era.

New American Standard:
42 And just as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong, and part of it will be fragile. 43 In that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in their descendants; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not combine with pottery.

Amplified:
And as you saw the iron mixed with common clay, so they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not merge [for such diverse things or ideologies cannot unite], even as iron does not mix with clay.

KJV:
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Several Bible scholars including the late Dr Chuck Missler bring up the "they" that mingle with the seed of men. It might be marriages for political reasons as some thought, or an attempt by Satan to completely destroy the genome of humanity.

 

[Muckah]

Dr Ken Johnson brings up that very euphemism in one of his lectures as a possibility so you may have something there. Not dogmatic about my outline either. One of the weak points of my outline is the imprisonment in Jude 6. There are some who argue for ongoing genetic tampering (UFO abductions etc) that has increased since 1948 and Israel becoming a nation again. Which brings that intriguing passage in Daniel 2:42 &43 about the descendants in the ten toes era.

New American Standard:
42 And just as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong, and part of it will be fragile. 43 In that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in their descendants; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not combine with pottery.

Amplified:
And as you saw the iron mixed with common clay, so they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not merge [for such diverse things or ideologies cannot unite], even as iron does not mix with clay.

KJV:
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Several Bible scholars including the late Dr Chuck Missler bring up the "they" that mingle with the seed of men. It might be marriages for political reasons as some thought, or an attempt by Satan to completely destroy the genome of humanity.

The toes MINGLED with Iron and Clay.

There are many different interpretations of Daniel's 'iron and clay'. One theory is that "mingling" is the sexual relationship between demons and humans as in Gen 6:1-4. I don't believe this conclusion is warranted here in Daniel 2.

The word MIXED OR MINGLED used to describe the toes is the Aramaic word "arab." It means mixed and denotes an Arabian or Arabia. (Gesenius) However, most interpreters would tell you this word is associate with ROME.

mixed

Daniel 2:43
"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar much more about the iron and clay than any of the other kingdoms because it depicts the end-time kingdom that the Lord returns to destroy. The word MIXED describes the people, the origin, and the geographical area from which the end-time anti-Christ would arise. The iron and clay describe the Arab/Muslim world far better than Rome or the EU, aliens, or anything else.

"And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken."

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise."

Daniel says the kingdom would, 'subdue all things, be divided and not cleave to one another, partly strong and partly broken, and mixed (arab/intermarried) with the seed of men. Islam has subdued nearly every religion in the Middle East.

Not only do Arab/Islamic countries have fragile alliances they have mixed, crossed, and broken up into hundreds of different tribes and clans scattered across the entire Mid-East including Northern Africa.

Their history, the scriptures, Ishmael as their father, and today's world proves they are divided, uncleaved, intermarried, i.e., "mixed with the seed of men." The Arab world has never "cleaved to one another." The NLT actually uses the word intermarried instead of mixed. The word Arab is today a variation of the word 'crossed' and they are among the most intermarried people in the world.

As of now, I believe the iron and clay represents the Shia and Sunni sects of Islam. The two horned beast of Revelation 13 may also represent the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam.

 

[Ronnie]

I have a theory on how the Giant DNA survived (but not dogmatic about it).

In Gen. 9 we read that Noah got drunk and that Ham saw his father's nakedness.
There is a possibility that this was an euphemism for saying Ham slept with Noah's wife.
Ham is even proud of what he did, he boasts about his feat to his brothers.
(Btw, the Bible never says Noah's wife is the mother of Noah's sons.)

If Noah's wife's DNA was corrupted and Ham slept with her,
that could be the reason why Noah curses Canaan instead of Ham.
Because now, through Canaan, the polluted DNA could spread once more.
And in my post upthread you see how the Giant DNA spread through the generations.

I don't think Satan tried for a second time to pollute the human DNA.
Because God imprisoned the fallen angels who committed this evil sin,
so that the other fallen angels would not do the same (as described in Jude 6).

I believe you are correct in that someone, that is not the woman husband, laying with the wife could be written in scripture as revealing the husband nakedness. Thought Noah other two sons talking a spread and going in backwards that it was Noah actual nakedness that we’re dealing with.

 

[Greg]

I know of a least one fairly well known person who promotes the Ham slept with Noah's wife take as the only thing he thinks makes sense. In that context, they could have been covering her up. I don't know... but it is an interesting possibility to consider.

 

[Greg]

As of now, I believe the iron and clay represents the Shia and Sunni sects of Islam. The two horned beast of Revelation 13 may also represent the Sunni and Shia sects of Islamsome.

Interesting -- I've wondered if it refers to the mixing of western and muslim societies we see going on today in Europe. I think the Shia branch will be pretty decimated after Ezekiel 38-39, but it's an open question on when that occurs.

 

[Goodboy]

Who has the Truth? Christians seem to believe they have the 'truth' yet, they often disagree.

Whose doctrine is 'truth'? The Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Calvinist, SDA'S, JW'S, Independent Fundamentalist, Calvinist - KJV only Baptist folks? Is OSAS Truth? Is soul sleep truth? Is Trinity truth? Is speaking in tongues truth? Is TULIP truth? What is the truth about hell - a word that's NOT found in many of the earliest translations. Do we go to heaven or paradise when we pass? These are just some of the disagreements.

So who has the Truth? Shouldn't we all stive to find it?

"The Greatest Impediment Christians have Obtaining Truth is when they think they already have it."

You want the truth? Here it is.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

It is really simple. Jesus states that those who love darkness (Satan's ways) and hate the light (Jesus ways) will not come to the light (Jesus) and be saved. Those that do what is right will come to the light (Jesus) and be saved.

Why would anyone not want to accepted a FREE GIFT that includes life internal with ONLY good, unless they do not like good. Those who do not accept Jesus like what Satan has to offer which is sin.
Any disagreement other that that doesn't really matter. Salvation is what is important!

People like to say that God sends people to hell. Nope, we get to choose that!

Have you made your choice to choose the light (Jesus) which is good?

I would suggest you read my testimony stating why I am a Christian rather than any other religion.

My Testimony - Why Christianity? - A Free Gift!

My testimony below makes the point that salvation is a Free Gift and learning that fact is what got me saved. :) Why Christianity? When I was about 13 years old I had the thought, “is there really a God”? I had been raised as a Christian, but I had not really decided for myself that God...

christiancommunityforum.com

I pray this helps you!

 

[Goodboy]

Who has the Truth? Christians seem to believe they have the 'truth' yet, they often disagree.

As I have stated before what is most important is that we get saved.

That said, you are correct about "Christians disagreeing". That is where you come in! You don't need to follow any denomination, I don't. You just need to read the Bible for yourself and allow the Holy Spirit help you understand what the Bible says, not what Pastors or Christian authors or friends may say unless it lines up with the Bible.

 

[Muckah]

As I have stated before what is most important is that we get saved.

That said, you are correct about "Christians disagreeing". That is where you come in! You don't need to follow any denomination, I don't. You just need to read the Bible for yourself and allow the Holy Spirit help you understand what the Bible says, not what Pastors or Christian authors or friends may say unless it lines up with the Bible.

Nearly every Christian believes they are enlightened by the Holy Spirit. BUT - for some reason they often disagree. I've probably read the book of John as often as you have and unless we utilize some sort of sensible hermeneutic, we could easily be misled.

 

[Goodboy]

Nearly every Christian believes they are enlightened by the Holy Spirit. BUT - for some reason they often disagree. I've probably read the book of John as often as you have and unless we utilize some sort of sensible hermeneutic, we could easily be misled.

@Muckah

What is takes to be saved is extremely clear all throughout the new Testament. Do some Christian dispute that? Yes, but anyone can clearly read it for themselves and see that belief in and acceptance of Jesus is what is required. I can show you many clear passage that YOU can use your own brain and understand yourself with no help from me. Why all the confusion? Because Satan is at work constantly trying to confuse us. He gets men to believe his lies tempting them with their pride. Men long to be smarter or better than others, so Satan makes them think they have a better Gospel so that people will follow them.

Did you read my testimony? As I stated in my testimony, even if you are not certain that Christianity is correct, as it is a Free gift and all about love and good why not accept it? How will you answer that question before God? You will have no excuse.

 

[Muckah]

Nearly every Christian believes they are enlightened by the Holy Spirit. BUT - for some reason they often disagree. I've probably read the book of John as often as you have and unless we utilize some sort of sensible hermeneutic, we could easily be misled.

@Muckah

What is takes to be saved is extremely clear all throughout the new Testament. Do some Christian dispute that? Yes, but anyone can clearly read it for themselves and see that belief in and acceptance of Jesus is what is required. I can show you many clear passage that YOU can use your own brain and understand yourself with no help from me. Why all the confusion? Because Satan is at work constantly trying to confuse us. He gets men to believe his lies tempting them with their pride. Men long to be smarter or better than others, so Satan makes them think they have a better Gospel so that people will follow them.

Did you read my testimony? As I stated in my testimony, even if you are not certain that Christianity is correct, as it is a Free gift and all about love and good why not accept it? How will you answer that question before God? You will have no excuse.

I'm not implying whatsoever that Christianity is incorrect. And this thread is NOT about salvation. No I did not read your testimony because it has nothing to do with this thread!