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I am bothered

Andiamo

Hanging on to the Throne
Was just reading Guzik’s commentary on Romans and found this, (below) regarding 8:1. Though in a way, I am relieved by what he says, Because I agree that it is hard to reconcile those words in context, I am also bothered. I am wondering how many times this has happened? What else could I be reading, meditating on and not aware of this?

Who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit: These words are not found in the earliest ancient manuscripts of the Book of Romans and they do not agree with the flow of Paul’s context here. They were probably added by a copyist who either made a mistake or thought he could “help” Paul by adding these words from Romans 8:4.

i. While it is true that those who are in Christ should not and do not consistently walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit, this is not a condition for their status of no condemnation. Our position in Jesus Christ is the reason for our standing of no condemnation.

ii. “The most learned men assure us that it is no part of the original text. I cannot just now go into the reasons for this conclusion, but they are very good and solid. The oldest copies are without it, the versions do not sustain it, and the fathers who quoted abundance of Scripture do not quote this sentence.” (Spurgeon)
 
And anyway, regarding the verse - the statement “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” is repeated in verse 4, going on to explain that we (who have been given the mind of Christ) are spiritually minded because we are not in the flesh (verse 9.) And have the power to live in the Spirit.
But this was where Paul intended the statement to be because it does not imply conditions upon “no condemnation “ as it does in verse 1.
 
I am not getting where the confusion is with the verses. Would you please explain what it is that does not agree?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
I am not getting where the confusion is with the verses. Would you please explain what it is that does not agree?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I’m not really talking about my understanding of the verses Goodboy. What I am bothered about is that Guzik and Spurgeon implied that a copyist added that phrase into verse 1! Wondering how often a copyist took it upon themselves to mess with my precious Word like that.
 
I’m not really talking about my understanding of the verses Goodboy. What I am bothered about is that he and Spurgeon said that a copyist added that phrase into verse 1!
Here is the thing. We either believe the Bible or we don't. If the Bible has been tampered with and we follow what it says, then the just God will understand that it is all we have to go on. However, if we start believing that the Bible has been tampered with, we may start distrusting it and believe what we want to believe or what some Pastor tells us. Commentaries are ONLY supposed to help us understand what the Bible is saying, not make us believe that what is in the Bible is not correct. The Bible was written by inspired men of God so they are not writing what they believe but what the spirit has told them. Those writing the commentaries are ordinary men who can be wrong with what they state.
 
Thank you Goodboy. I just hate when I read something and it casts bothersome thoughts into my mind. Actually it wasn’t so much doubt, because I choose to believe the entire Word of God, in faith. Just bothered. But those bothering thoughts could lead to doubts if I allowed them to. Thanks :hug:
 
Thank you Goodboy. I just hate when I read something and it casts bothersome thoughts into my mind. Actually it wasn’t so much doubt, because I choose to believe the entire Word of God, in faith. Just bothered. But those bothering thoughts could lead to doubts if I allowed them to. Thanks :hug:
You are very welcome!!! 😊

I know you were not doing this, but I have had debates with someone on another Christian Forum where I would list a Bible verse to prove my point. They would respond with what some commentary said that disagrees with what the Bible verse clearly stated. I would suggest that we should only read the commentary if we cannot understand what the Bible verse is saying. Otherwise we are trusting in men, which the Bible tells us not to do.

God Bless! 😍
 
@Andiamo, the beauty of God's Word is that it is so intricately constructed that nothing can alter what God intends to convey when you read the Word as a whole rather than pick out a verse here or a verse there. I think there's little doubt that the clause "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" was not in Paul's original at that point, but was indeed a logical part of the idea he writes 3 sentences later. And if you like, I can tell you exactly why. But for now, to continue my point that God protects His Word, what does walking after the spirit and not after the flesh mean?

At its most basic level it means that our life is given us by the Spirit and not by the natural world, and therefore the focus of our lives is on spiritual things not only on natural things. So, in essence, having that insertion of "who walk not according to the flesh, but the according to the Spirit" does not change the meaning of God's Word in Romans 8:1.

You see, that clause is introduced by the grand truth ”therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" and is immediately followed by "for in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death." The form of the Greek verb "set you free" describes a one and done deal. The law of the Spirit of life (faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work which, as Scripture plainly reveals, gives you eternal life) has freed us from the law of sin and death (striving in your own ability to please God which, as Scripture equally plainly reveals, leads to eternal death.) When viewed bracketed by those two statements, the relative clause "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" conveys Biblical truth: namely, that there is no longer any kind of condemnnation for us because our lives, being IN Christ Jesus, are now in the realm of the Spirit not In the realm of the flesh and, therefore being now governed by the law of the Spirit of life, we are now no longer governed by the law of sin and death.

So, the insertion of the clause we have been discussing into the end of verse 1 does not change the meaning of God's Word, when we properly divide it. The problem comes when it is improperly divided and people understand it to add a condition to our not being condemned: specifically that in order not to be condemned we must walk --behave, live-- our lives in a certain way ... in other words, if we interpret that inserted phrase to mean that our salvation depends not exclusively on Christ's work but on our behavior, then WE have altered God's Word. But, of course, there are many, many other verses in the Bible that make it clear that we're saved by faith alone in Christ alone.

This is what I mean when I say that God's Word is so cleverly constructed that taken as a whole it prevents misunderstanding or mistranslation. We see a good example of that in the Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation where they have purposefully mistranslated a number of passages so that their bible will support their false doctrine. But in doing so they have actually introduced contradictions into their bible, contradictions that require them to continually retranslate and change in an attempt to eliminate them. But the second you begin to change God's word it will never fit together, you're faced with a hopeless task of altering it to fit your beliefs.

But understanding that God's Word cannot be harmed by any copyist's mistake or intentional insertion, does not mean that we should just ignore them and allow such things to exist despite the weight of the manuscript evidence. My problem with allowing that relative clause to exist at the end of verse 1 is that, placed in that location, it not only interfer with the flow of Paul's thought that he is communicating --in Christ there is no condemnation because we are now governed by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus and no longer the spirit of law and death-- but it also introduces an occasion for Satan to muddy the waters of salvation by raising the idea that our freedom from condemnation by God is somehow connected to the way we live. Do you see how that clause does that at the end of verse 1? Now it is no longer a simple statement that there's no longer any condemnation for those who in Christ Jesus but instead it conveys the idea that there's no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus and who walk not after the flesh. Now, that that interpretation is incorrect can be discovered by reading the rest of the epistles in the New Testament, but unfortunately too many teachers who teach legalism use it to insert the false idea that somehow what we do is more important than (or even as important as) what Jesus did.

Nevertheless, despite the possible misinterpretations that the change I have discussed can raise, whether that relative clause is tacked onto the end of verse 1 or left in its proper place in verse 3, it does not change God's Word. And certainly not if we apply proper Berean study of the Word in its entirety. Therefore, dear sister, do not let it worry you. I can assure you that there is no place in the Bible that in 50 years I have come across where a copyist's change, or some disagreement in manuscript, has altered the meaning of God's Word to us. We can trust it 100%.

If you would like a longer discussion of this I can help with that, but in the meantime, I hope this helps.
 
Was just reading Guzik’s commentary on Romans and found this, (below) regarding 8:1. Though in a way, I am relieved by what he says, Because I agree that it is hard to reconcile those words in context, I am also bothered. I am wondering how many times this has happened? What else could I be reading, meditating on and not aware of this?
It's happened many times, but as Adrian put it...

"This is what I mean when I say that God's Word is so cleverly constructed that taken as a whole it prevents misunderstanding or mistranslation."

Take any matter of doctrine, and can see how God hits it from so many different angles until we 'get it', but if we don't understand how that doctrine is formulated and we try to build doctrine on one verse, then we get into a mess.

Yes, we could get into legalism with the end of the verse in Rom.8:1, but the more we study the more lights come on.

For your comfort, these issues have been debated countless times over the centuries and the essential truths of God have been preserved.

God promised to preserve His Word, and He has!

Go to the Got Questions website and check out...

Is the doctrine of preservation biblical?​


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