Faith 1 and Faith 2

[KUWN]

Why I Abandoned my faith

Here's a real shocker, not that anyone should care, but after all these years, I have abandoned my faith in Christ. True, life has been unbearable for me over the last years. You might even say... unfair. There has not been one day over this time that I haven't prayed that God would allow me to die… but that's not the reason I discarded my faith. Actually, this desertion of my faith took place quite some time ago. And I really have no particular reason as to why I'm going public with it now.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I would like to give some background information on religion that I believe is not widely known. I'm not trying to influence others to abandon their faith; that's not my job. But I am trying to expose something that all religions must admit, or live in denial of.

As I see it, religions exist to answer the mother load of all questions: How do we get into heaven, assuming there is one? No matter which religion you choose, the answer will ultimately reduce to this: faith. Religious faith is the panacea of all eternal hopes. Yet not one religion can provide any objective, verifiable evidence that proves they are the right religion -- not Muslims, not Hindus, not a one.

It was this realization that made me take a closer look at Christianity. Working with the understanding that all religions operated on the basis of faith, I had to ask myself obvious questions: Why is Christianity any different? Is it? It was my passionate pursuit for an answer to this nagging question that forced me to abandon my faith. Let me shift my focus from religion to religious faith.

It may come as a surprise to most to know that Christianity is not based on faith; it's the only “religion” that can make that claim. Faith, and by faith I mean “religious faith,” is the ace trump of all religions. Rather than providing objective evidence for their truth claims, religious fanatics simply retreat to the impenetrable defense of “we don't need evidence; we have faith.” In other words, religion is not open to rational discourse or scientific investigation. As a self-imposed limitation then, all religions are based on speculation, wishful thinking, or are anti-rational.

One of the most important discoveries I made during my search for answers was that all religions require their followers to accept their fundamental, core beliefs by faith. This resulted in people believe very strange teachings. Worse yet, even faith in unverifiable claims. This proved true in every instance, with every religion, except one? With Christianity, such foolish faith, which I now call it, is to be rejected as speculative and sheer nonsense. Christianity made no claims to being founded on religious faith, nor does it require that its members accept the claims of Christianity by religious faith.

For example, why do I say Islam (since it is a religion) is based on faith in “unverifiable claims”? Here's why: because Mohammed's claim to have been visited by Gabriel the angel with a message from God is not open to verification. The same situation obtains with Mormonism as well. Neither of these religious founders provided their followers with objective verification of their claims, so all one is left to do is to accept their claims by faith or, of course, reject them.

This truth became an all-consuming preoccupation with me for quite a while. I simply couldn't get this out of my mind. All religions, I kept thinking, all religions are based on religious faith… all but one that is. Christianity never claimed to be based on religious faith, although some uninformed Christians do. But why? The answer has to do with the critical distinction between religious faith and biblical faith.

Unless the object of one's faith is subject to verification, a verification even open to skeptics, it is not biblical faith. Jesus never asked anyone to have religious faith in him!!! Please reread that last sentence. Please! In case you are in a hurry, let me repeat it again. Jesus never asked anyone to have religious faith in him!!! Don't ever forget that. Such a request would have been rightfully dismissed by any thinking person of his day, not only would it be rejected, but ought to be rejected.

All religions before and after Jesus invariably subscribe to one dominating, universal principle: “salvation” (whatever they conceive that to be) is based on religious faith or religious acts (being good, helping others, feeding the hungry, doing missionary time, jihad, etc). But in every religion it will be discovered that religious faith presents itself as biblical faith. But the two are at polar opposite ends of credibility.

When Christ denied this universal, religious phenomenon, I was sure I was onto something. Christ made a statement that had never been said before or after. It is found throughout the Gospels, but most directly stated by Christ in John 10:37

“If I do not perform the works of my Father (God), do not put your faith in me.”

This proposition has forever changed religion as we know it.

This seems so painfully simple as to need no further comment, but it may prove beneficial to make a few peripheral remarks.

Notice that Jesus asked that people NOT put their faith in him, unless he could first demonstrate to their satisfaction that he was sent from God. And how does one do that? Well, not on the basis of religious faith! Otherwise, I could ask people to believe in me with equal validity as Christ!

 

[Andy C]

If I do not perform the works of my Father (God), do not put your faith in me.”

Where and in what bible version is He quoted as saying that?

 

[KUWN]

Where and in what bible version is He quoted as saying that?

GJohn 10.37, I don't use Translations or Versions, but I use the Greek NT (CT)

εἰ οὐ ποιῶ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ πατρός μου, μὴ πιστεύετέ μοι·

If I do not the works of my Father, do not put your faith in me.

This is what I call evidentiary faith.

 

[mattfivefour]

Eddie, you are using a dramatic statement in order to make your point. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that here. Instead lay out the teaching and let people draw their own lesson from it.

I assume you are trying to make the point that faith in Christ is not blind faith. It's not faith because we are told to have faith in Him. It's faith in Him because He has demonstrated that He is in fact the Messiah, the Promised One by doing the works prophesied that He would do, indeed works that only God could do.

And indeed as you point out, Christ says in John 10:37, literally "If I do not the works of my Father, do not believe (do not trust or have faith in) me." And it is purely on that basis that we should put our faith in Him.

 

[KUWN]

Eddie, you are using a dramatic statement in order to make your point. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that here. Instead lay out the teaching and let people draw their own lesson from it.

I assume you are trying to make the point that faith in Christ is not blind faith. It's not faith because we are told to have faith in Him. It's faith in Him because He has demonstrated that He is in fact the Messiah, the Promised One by doing the works prophesied that He would do, indeed works that only God could do.

And indeed as you point out, Christ says in John 10:37, literally "If I do not the works of my Father, do not believe (do not trust or have faith in) me." And it is purely on that basis that we should put our faith in Him.

But I am making a truthful statement, and it is put in this format to get my point across. If we are limited to posts that are not interesting, nobody will read it. If you want me to stop posting, I will honor your wish. But if you do want to eliminate my style of teaching, I can't do that. I learned a valuable lesson with the teachings of Christ; he spoke as one with authority, and I am persuaded that creative writing is a necessary aspect of teaching the Scriptures. To me the fundamental clarity of Scripture is one of its main features, and I enjoy demonstrating that in my writings.

I noted that you had no problem understanding my point. I am not trying to be deceptive or obtuse, it is just how I communicate. I want to challenge what they believe and make it interesting.

I will await your decision.

 

[Kaatje]

I noted that you had no problem understanding my point. I am not trying to be deceptive or obtuse, it is just how I communicate. I want to challenge what they believe and make it interesting.

Kuwn, we have here a Forum that consists of new-born believers (those that require milk, if you will) and those that have studied the Bible longer. If your writings are only beneficial to the "meat-eaters" but sow confusion to others, they miss the mark.

Jesus spoke in parabels when He wanted to teach his disciples, but was plain spoken when he wanted the multitudes to understand Him.
So that's why we urge you, to speak plainly, that everyone can understand and not be misunderstood.

God‭ is‭‭ not‭ the author‭ of ‭confusion‭‭, but‭ of peace‭, as‭ in‭ all‭ churches‭ of the saints‭.‭ (1 Cor. 14:33)

If we are limited to posts that are not interesting, nobody will read it.

Being plain-spoken and boring are not the same!
You seem like someone who has a gift of the pen.
I'm sure, if you put your mind to it, you could write beautiful posts without the "drama".
And you might even be surprised, maybe even more people would read it, instead of stopping prematurely because it is too difficult to comprehend.

 

[Hol]

All religions, I kept thinking, all religions are based on religious faith… all but one that is.

Well written & thank you for your contributions.

If I try to restate your sentence above, it could be said that all religions are based on faith, but only Christianity empowers our faith through God’s grace to trust in the One who did the work to redeem us.

 

[Goodboy]

One of the most important discoveries I made during my search for answers was that all religions require their followers to accept their fundamental, core beliefs by faith. This resulted in people believe very strange teachings. Worse yet, even faith in unverifiable claims. This proved true in every instance, with every religion, except one? With Christianity, such foolish faith, which I now call it, is to be rejected as speculative and sheer nonsense. Christianity made no claims to being founded on religious faith, nor does it require that its members accept the claims of Christianity by religious faith.

I am not sure what point you are making? You seem to say that Christianity is different and can be proven, and that other faiths are foolish, speculative and sheer nonsense. However, your whole point is that you abandoned your faith in Christ. So I am still not understanding why you abandoned your faith in Christ?

As Kaatje suggested, please just be more plain-spoken in just a few sentences, so we can understand what you are saying and respond if necessary.

 

[Goodboy]

I noted that you had no problem understanding my point. I am not trying to be deceptive or obtuse, it is just how I communicate. I want to challenge what they believe and make it interesting.

I will await your decision.

I had a real problem understanding your point, as I kept waiting for you to explain why you abandoned your faith in Christ. I now assume that you are saying that you no longer need faith, as you now have proof. However, we still require faith in what the future will bring which can't be proven, so I assume you still have faith in that?

 

[KUWN]

I had a real problem understanding your point, as I kept waiting for you to explain why you abandoned your faith in Christ. I now assume that you are saying that you no longer need faith, as you now have proof. However, we still require faith in what the future will bring which can't be proven, so I assume you still have faith in that?

You got it. I abandoned my faith that is NOT evidentiary to a faith that is based on facts. We can give proof of them in the text. However, I may add that this. only comes about with a literal interpretive method. There are no limits as to what a text says if you use a symbolic interpretive model. "As you now have proof" that is very perceptive!!!

 

[KUWN]

I am not sure what point you are making? You seem to say that Christianity is different and can be proven, and that other faiths are foolish, speculative and sheer nonsense. However, your whole point is that you abandoned your faith in Christ. So I am still not understanding why you abandoned your faith in Christ?

As Kaatje suggested, please just be more plain-spoken in just a few sentences, so we can understand what you are saying and respond if necessary.

Consider these parables, will that help?

 

[mattfivefour]

But I am making a truthful statement, and it is put in this format to get my point across. If we are limited to posts that are not interesting, nobody will read it. If you want me to stop posting, I will honor your wish. But if you do want to eliminate my style of teaching, I can't do that. I learned a valuable lesson with the teachings of Christ; he spoke as one with authority, and I am persuaded that creative writing is a necessary aspect of teaching the Scriptures. To me the fundamental clarity of Scripture is one of its main features, and I enjoy demonstrating that in my writings.

I noted that you had no problem understanding my point. I am not trying to be deceptive or obtuse, it is just how I communicate. I want to challenge what they believe and make it interesting.

I will await your decision.

I will send you a DM.

 

[Goodboy]

Consider these parables, will that help?

My quick answer is no that won't help. What you have stated is confusing. Confusion is one of the methods that Satan uses to keep people from getting saved. Some just get so confused that they believe nothing. I am sure that is not your intent, but as Kaatje stated there are some new-born believers who will only get confused with what you have posted.

 

[Tall Timbers]

If we are limited to posts that are not interesting, nobody will read it. If you want me to stop posting, I will honor your wish. But if you do want to eliminate my style of teaching, I can't do that.

I didn't get your point and it appears that others didn't as well. That doesn't make for an interesting post, quite the opposite. Whatever "teaching" method you're attempting to use, you're losing much of your audience. If that's all you've got, it might make sense to stop trying to teach and get to know the community here.

The type of communication shared on a Board like this is very limited compared to a verbal discussion, especially a verbal discussion in the presence of one's audience. Your method(s) may fall short in this environment.

 

[KUWN]

So I am still not understanding why you abandoned your faith in Christ?

Because I accepted Christ on the word of another person. That I hope was giving me the correct information. But NOW. I can show that Christ was God using only the scriptures. I can demonstrate that the word of God has supernatural writings in it. The Qu'ran is not supernatural. It makes no predictions and can not because it is not a supernatural book. For example, Daniel predicted the TIME of Christ's death hundreds of years before Christ was born to Mary.

 

[Goodboy]

Because I accepted Christ on the word of another person. That I hope was giving me the correct information. But NOW. I can show that Christ was God using only the scriptures. I can demonstrate that the word of God has supernatural writings in it. The Qu'ran is not supernatural. It makes no predictions and can not because it is not a supernatural book. For example, Daniel predicted the TIME of Christ's death hundreds of years before Christ was born to Mary.

I love the fact that you did not just accept Jesus as your Savior and leave it at that. I totally believe you were saved right at that moment you prayed as I was. You proceeded to increase your faith by evidence. I had to increase my faith though understanding. You see I think extremely logically and God killing his son made absolutely no sense to me. I ended up reading "The Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey where he explained that God has perfect justice which had to be met. The moment I understood that, I was totally convinced of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit and The Bible. How, I don't know but I was.

So my point is, I believe that your salvation like mine was completely by faith but we both backed up that faith with further knowledge. Kind of like how I believed in gravity by faith when I learned about it, but when I dropped something and it fell to the ground, I put that faith to the test and then it became a fact to me because it was tested.

However, not everyone needs to test Christianity as faith is enough.

 

[KUWN]

I didn't get your point and it appears that others didn't as well. That doesn't make for an interesting post, quite the opposite. Whatever "teaching" method you're attempting to use, you're losing much of your audience.

My audience is the mature, meat-eaters, not the babes in Christ. There will be plenty of postings out here for them.

 

[Andy C]

My audience is the mature, meat-eaters, not the babes in Christ. There will be plenty of postings out here for them.

This post won’t win you any friends. Its all about fellowship, not egos.

 

[Andy C]

However, not everyone needs to test Christianity as faith is enough.

Thank God for this truth!

 

[mattfivefour]

My audience is the mature, meat-eaters, not the babes in Christ. T

Then, respectfully, this would not be the right place for you. As in any church, we need to teach and preach in a manner that can reach everybody ... from beginner to mature believer. But before you make a decision about whether to stay here, please read the DM I sent you earlier today.