Baptism in the Holy Spirit

[Ronnie]

I am currently seeking the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, I was just listening to a sermon and the pastor said, I paraphrase, Many claim the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but don’t have power in their life.

I had an experience in 1975, a gift was in operation about me before I came to the home prayer meeting. I was slain in the Spirit and couldn’t move and spoke in other tongues, but my life didn’t manifest power as it should have. To date my life isn’t exemplary of having the fullness of the Spirit.

I will acknowledge that the Lord uses me on the board, but if you knew my prayer life, or lack thereof and how little I spent in God’s word you would know what I’m talking about. It is evident to me that I’m lacking something, I have set my hope in a coming time before week go home of greater glory, greater anointing and Spiritual enduement of Spirit.

I believe that Demons can dwell in some part of Man’s tri-part being, I don’t think that they can dwell in our spirit though. His is controversial and I am leaving the bounds, temporarily, that I have set for myself.

I wish not to see members telling me I’m this, that and the other.

 

[Tall Timbers]

Are you of Pentecostal persuasion, Ronnie? I was baptized in a United Pentacostal church.

 

[Ronnie]

Denomination doesn’t enter into it, all God’s saints supposed to be Pentecostal (not talking about denominations).

 

[Ronnie]

I’m looking at the DNC, looking over the vast audience and I thought to myself, They, to some percentage, would kill Christians.

 

[Ronnie]

Forgetting denominations, how can the redeemed (correction - not) be Pentecostal, when God said, in Joel 2:28, And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Forget about any organization or denomination, I’m talking about God’s Spirit indwelling a person, the Biblical command in scripture,
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Ephesians 5:18.

 

[mattfivefour]

Scripture is clear that all believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, brother. There need be no discussion over that. But not all believers experience a second, empowering work of the Holy Spirit ... chiefly because they have not heard such is available, or they have heard but do not believe it. And the reason for that is twofold: 1) they have either been taught by cessationist pastors who --contrary to a full reading of Scripture-- believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit all died out with the apostolic generation; or 2) they have witnessed the abuses of the hyper-Pentecostals who have brought shame on the gifts through prideful use or unscriptural practices. But regardless, the topic now usually results in arguments rather than true teaching and, sadly, what should supply empowerment and unity instead divides brothers and sisters in the faith. So I am not interested in such a discussion here.

Based on scripture, I personally believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are active today; and I also believe --equally based on scripture-- that following salvation with its guaranteed indwelling of the Holy Spirit in every believer, there is a second work of grace available that is commonly termed the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And while I pray in tongues and very occasionally have given a message in tongues, as well as in English, and while I think there is scriptural direction that this "baptism" is evidenced by speaking in tongues, I'm not entirely convinced that that is the only evidence. I definitely believe many people receive it without tongues.

As just one example of many, I can find no record that DL Moody ever spoke in tongues, but his description of what happened to him one day sounds to me exactly like the baptism of the Holy Spirit: he was totally overwhelmed. And following that event, he himself states that for the first time his ministry had power. And throughout his life, when he taught ministers at his Bible School, he insisted they all seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. and he insisted that RA Torrey do the same thing. Further, I've known too many people who speak in tongues and give no evidence of the Holy Spirit controlling their lives, no evidence of the fruit. And for all those reasons I have departed from the Pentecostal teaching I received as a baby Christian. Based on both scripture and my personal experience with it, I believe in the small-p pentecostal experience; but I am not prepared any longer to accept all of the capital-P Pentecostal doctrine.

Now this is all I'm going to say about it. And I am serious when I say that I do not want an argument of any kind, pro or con, to occur here. I will not allow division to harm our fellowship and unity. As a pastor I have said what I believe from scripture. And that is where I will stop. If anyone is interested in the topic, they can examine Scripture themselves, seek the direction of the Holy Spirit, and come to their own conclusion on the matter.

ETA-- if anyone wants to ask questions on the topic, please don't hesitate. This is not a dictatorship: it's a fellowship. But please let's not argue or get upset if someone disagrees.

 

[Ronnie]

Have I ran afoul of anything you’ve said, I think that I’ve said somewhere that the Spirit dwells in every believer.

To be clear your post doesn’t upset me I welcome it, we are in agreement.

 

[TCC]

Scripture is clear that all believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, brother. There need be no discussion over that. But not all believers experience a second, empowering work of the Holy Spirit ... chiefly because they have not heard such is available, or they have heard but do not believe it. And the reason for that is twofold: 1) they have either been taught by cessationist pastors who --contrary to a full reading of Scripture-- believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit all died out with the apostolic generation; or 2) they have witnessed the abuses of the hyper-Pentecostals who have brought shame on the gifts through prideful use or unscriptural practices. But regardless, the topic now usually results in arguments rather than true teaching and, sadly, what should supply empowerment and unity instead divides brothers and sisters in the faith. So I am not interested in such a discussion here.

Based on scripture, I personally believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are active today; and I also believe --equally based on scripture-- that following salvation with its guaranteed indwelling of the Holy Spirit in every believer, there is a second work of grace available that is commonly termed the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And while I pray in tongues and very occasionally have given a message in tongues, as well as in English, and while I think there is scriptural direction that this "baptism" is evidenced by speaking in tongues, I'm not entirely convinced that that is the only evidence. I definitely believe many people receive it without tongues.

As just one example of many, I can find no record that DL Moody ever spoke in tongues, but his description of what happened to him one day sounds to me exactly like the baptism of the Holy Spirit: he was totally overwhelmed. And following that event, he himself states that for the first time his ministry had power. And throughout his life, when he taught ministers at his Bible School, he insisted they all seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. and he insisted that RA Torrey so the same thing. Further, I've known too many people who speak in tongues and give no evidence of the Holy Spirit controlling their lives, no evidence of the fruit. And for all those reasons I have departed from the Pentecostal teaching I received as a baby Christian. Based on both scripture and my personal experience with it, I believe in the small-p pentecostal experience; but I am not prepared any longer to accept all of the capital-P Pentecostal doctrine.

Now this is all I'm going to say about it. And I am serious when I say that I do not want an argument of any kind, pro or con, to occur here. I will not allow division to harm our fellowship and unity. As a pastor I have said what I believe from scripture. And that is where I will stop. If anyone is interested in the topic, they can examine Scripture themselves, seek the direction of the Holy Spirit, and come to their own conclusion on the matter.

ETA-- if anyone wants to ask questions on the topic, please don't hesitate. This is not a dictatorship: it's a fellowship. But please let's not argue or get upset if someone disagrees.

Thanks for sharing this Pastor. I was not aware of this leaning perhaps in the forum. I will keep this in mind. Amen. I have said in other places prior that ironically the most active I could see God's hyperactivity in my life was while I was with a cessationist church. Which I find kind of tongue-in-cheek of the Lord. I mean literally things would occur for me that are not just Providence and certainly not normal. I was encouraged too that that cessationist church did at times permit Charsimatic pastors to preach at their main pulpit. A pretty interesting environment where theological differences were kind of well defined, but at the same time, brotherly care transcended those differences. Pretty amazing testimony to hold within my heart. Amen. Blessings.

 

[BABBAB58]

I am currently seeking the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, I was just listening to a sermon and the pastor said, I paraphrase, Many claim the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but don’t have power in their life.

I had an experience in 1975, a gift was in operation about me before I came to the home prayer meeting. I was slain in the Spirit and couldn’t move and spoke in other tongues, but my life didn’t manifest power as it should have. To date my life isn’t exemplary of having the fullness of the Spirit.

I will acknowledge that the Lord uses me on the board, but if you knew my prayer life, or lack thereof and how little I spent in God’s word you would know what I’m talking about. It is evident to me that I’m lacking something, I have set my hope in a coming time before week go home of greater glory, greater anointing and Spiritual enduement of Spirit.

I believe that Demons can dwell in some part of Man’s tri-part being, I don’t think that they can dwell in our spirit though. His is controversial and I am leaving the bounds, temporarily, that I have set for myself.

I wish not to see members telling me I’m this, that and the other.

Hi Ronnie,
I am new here, and not familiar with where folks are in their walk with the Lord. If any of us were complete in our walk, then we would be at the feet of Jesus. I say that so to say that I am still being worked on by the Potter's hands.

I had an experience in 1975, a gift was in operation about me before I came to the home prayer meeting. I was slain in the Spirit and couldn’t move and spoke in other tongues, but my life didn’t manifest power as it should have. To date my life isn’t exemplary of having the fullness of the Spirit.

I am not familiar with the word sets, "a gift was in operation about me"; "slain in the Spirit and couldn't move and spoke in other tongues"; and "manifest power as it should have".
Could you say these phrases differently or offer scripture of what you mean by them? I will post a separate post on tongues and the Holy Spirit as I understand. This is not meant to challenge you, rather, let you know my thoughts of understanding.

 

[BABBAB58]

I start where someone has started. I look at any scripture offered and see if I can agree with them; not look for a way to disagree with them. If I can see in studying their perspective something new in the Word, then I have been enriched. This is just me.

Ronnie said, all God's saints supposed to be Pentacostal. If Pentacostal with a capital "P" is designating the Jewish convocation following fifty days after Passover; and the day that the Holy Spirit came upon ~120 men and the formal Bride began, then yes, technically we are Pentacostal. Jewish tradition has Pentecost as the day that Moses descended from Mount Sinai the second time to present the Ten Commandments. The same day to the Lord of both testament's beginnings. Personally, I would not say that I am Pentacostal. I am a born-again believer in Jesus the Christ, my LORD. Many maintain Christain or an Evangelical as their identifier and that is Biblical. The devil has had great success in making those identifiers profane words. This is on him, but I've seen it as a hindrance because the woke go after them like a dog to the bone.

A second empowering work of the Spirit.
I have had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit since I was 13 years old. This is the age that I gave my life to Jesus. There was a period of time that I sorely doubted the promises of God because of life events; however, during and afterward I did not feel an emptiness of the Spirit or needing additional empowering. I have had some remarkable things happen that can only be of the Lord. Nothing that I would think would be outside of the norm, after all, it is the Spirit of God.

The speaking in tongues that began on Pentecost and was used on other occasions.
From Lexicon:
HELPS Word-studies
1100 glṓssa – tongue, used of flowing speech; (figuratively) speaking, inspired by God, like the evidence of tongues-speaking supplied by the Lord in the book of Acts to demonstrate the arrival of the new age of the covenant (i.e. NT times).

[The normative experience of the 120 believers received "tongues (1100 /glṓssa) as of fire" (Ac 2:3) and miraculously spoke in other actual languages, i.e. that they could not speak before (Ac 2:4f). This sign was repeated in Ac 10:46, 19:6 – furnishing ample proof (three attestations) that the Lord had incorporated all believers into Christ's (mystical) body (1 Cor 12:13).]

I have not found any scripture in the New Testament of tongues being spoken that were not actual languages. Paul writes by the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 14, about the benefits of speaking in known tongues or languages. Known as in Hebrew, Italian, Greek etc., not utterances that are useless to the one doing it and those hearing it. This might upset some, I understand.

 

[mattfivefour]

Respectfully, I think 1 Corinthians 14 makes reference to tongues that are not known languages. In verse 2 the Holy Spirit anoints the apostle to write: "He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit." And in verse 4, he writes: "The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church." It seems to me these cannot be known languages, as the apostle says "no one" understands the tongues. Further the text says that tongues edifies the speaker, but then points out that a word of prophecy understood by the listeners edifies the entire church. The idea that tongues may not be understood by the speaker is explained further in verse 14, where the apostle writes: "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." In other words, when praying in tongues the individual who does so may be edified, but nothing is happening in his or her mind because his or her mind clearly does not comprehend what is being said.

Paul's answer to this is not to avoid tongues, but rather to ensure that he adds comprehensible words to his actions. He writes, "I will pray with my spirit [that is to say in tongues], but I will also pray with my mind [that is to say with his understanding]. I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind." (1 Corinthians 14:15)

Paul then thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than all of the ones to whom he is writing (verse 18), but adds that he would rather speak five coherent words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue (verse 19).

With respect, I believe it would be hard to view the tongues to which Paul is referring in the above verses as belonging to a known language. This issue has tripped up many people: They fail to understand that there are apparently two types of tongues-- those in a known language that can be interpreted and are intended for the edification of the Church, and those In an unknown language that cannot be translated and are intended for the edification of the speaker.

 

[TrustandFaith]

Respectfully, I think 1 Corinthians 14 makes reference to tongues that are not known languages. In verse 2 the Holy Spirit anoints the apostle to write: "He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit." And in verse 4, he writes: "The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church." It seems to me these cannot be known languages as the apostle says "no one" understand the tongues. Further the text says that tongues edifies the speaker but points out that a word of prophecy understood but the listeners edifies the entire church. The idea that tongue surprises speaker is explained further in verse 14, where the apostle writes: "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." In other words, when praying in tongues the individual who does so may be edified, but nothing is happening in his or her mind because his or her mind clearly does not comprehend what is being said.

Paul's answer to this is not to avoid tongues, but rather to ensure that he adds comprehensible words to his actions. He writes, "I will pray with my spirit [that is to say in tongues], but I will also pray with my mind [that is to say with his understanding]. I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind." (1 Corinthians 14:15)

Paul then thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than all of the ones to whom he is writing (verse 18), but adds that he would rather speak five coherent words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue (verse 19).

With respect, I believe it would be hard to view the tongues to which Paul is referring in the above verses as belonging to a known language. This issue has tripped up many people: They fail to understand that there are apparently two types of tongues-- those in a known language that can be interpreted and are intended for the edification of the Church, and those In an unknown language that cannot be translated and are intended for the edification of the speaker.

Thank you for your wise words @mattfivefour. I’ve reread 1 Corinthians 12-14 seeking clarity and wonder what is the correct protocol within a Church to discover who if any has been gifted in the interpretation of tongues? As I’m typing this I’m already feeling that it would be revealed by the Holy Spirit at just the right time if at all.

I recall you saying that you pray in tongues, as I do and that your words had been interpreted once. I wonder if you might elaborate on how this interpretation came about and how edifying it was for the Church? I hope you don’t mind me asking but this has been on my mind for a while and I’ve not had anyone to ask before.

 

[Matthew6:33]

I came from a charismatic background as a baby Christian. Now I find myself more conservative baptist but I always had an open mind toward the cessionist/non-cessionist stance with scripture support. I will mark this one to read later. Good info here.

 

[BABBAB58]

Respectfully, I think 1 Corinthians 14 makes reference to tongues that are not known languages. In verse 2 the Holy Spirit anoints the apostle to write: "He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit." And in verse 4, he writes: "The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church." It seems to me these cannot be known languages as the apostle says "no one" understand the tongues. Further the text says that tongues edifies the speaker but points out that a word of prophecy understood but the listeners edifies the entire church. The idea that tongue surprises speaker is explained further in verse 14, where the apostle writes: "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." In other words, when praying in tongues the individual who does so may be edified, but nothing is happening in his or her mind because his or her mind clearly does not comprehend what is being said.

Paul's answer to this is not to avoid tongues, but rather to ensure that he adds comprehensible words to his actions. He writes, "I will pray with my spirit [that is to say in tongues], but I will also pray with my mind [that is to say with his understanding]. I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind." (1 Corinthians 14:15)

Paul then thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than all of the ones to whom he is writing (verse 18), but adds that he would rather speak five coherent words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue (verse 19).

With respect, I believe it would be hard to view the tongues to which Paul is referring in the above verses as belonging to a known language. This issue has tripped up many people: They fail to understand that there are apparently two types of tongues-- those in a known language that can be interpreted and are intended for the edification of the Church, and those In an unknown language that cannot be translated and are intended for the edification of the speaker.

Since mine is quite long, I think it would be easier to do it below.

 

[mattfivefour]

Thank you for your wise words @mattfivefour. I’ve reread 1 Corinthians 12-14 seeking clarity and wonder what is the correct protocol within a Church to discover who if any has been gifted in the interpretation of tongues? As I’m typing this I’m already feeling that it would be revealed by the Holy Spirit at just the right time if at all.

I recall you saying that you pray in tongues, as I do and that your words had been interpreted once. I wonder if you might elaborate on how this interpretation came about and how edifying it was for the Church? I hope you don’t mind me asking but this has been on my mind for a while and I’ve not had anyone to ask before.

I'm in my 81st year of life, please don't ask me to recall much! It really is a blur, even many of the wonderful things of God. But I do recall many of the blessings that God has worked in my life, some of which were nothing short of actual miracles. And there have been so many in other people's lives with which I have been blessed to interact. In my life I can recall two significant healings I've received, a prophecy made over me that has come to pass, and a prophecy I gave in a Canadian Assemblies of God church back in 2007 that has been coming to pass for many years. But I cannot remember every instance of tongues, either given or interpreted. The things I have remembered I have shared over the past decade and a half online. But sadly the actual details of those things I have largely forgotten are gone from my mind. However, since they were done by the grace and the power of God and for His glory, I am convinced they still redound to the glory of God in the heavenlies.

I can tell you this: before I became an ordained minister and spoke regularly from pulpits, I never jumped at a chance to speak publicly in church. Whenever I felt the urge to speak a word of encouragement, or correction, or prophecy, or to deliver a message in tongues, I held back. To stand up and say "Thus saith the Lord!" is a fearsome thing!!! The Lord God had better have said it. So it was always with fear that I spoke openly in church. And I can tell you as a pastor while the fear is not the same trembling fear I felt before, I have a deep and holy sense of the awesome responsibility I carry when I preach or teach. And I constantly check what I say not only with God's Word but also with His Spirit. And I can tell you that there have been times I've spent a lot of effort putting a message together to deliver, only to be told no. So I have erased it and humbly begun again. Most importantly I've learned this lesson: before you preach something to others preach it first to yourself.

I do not like writing about myself because it always seems to me to be self-serving, even though I don't intend it that way. There is no thanks or glory intended to myself in any of what I've written above. However, I did want to share what I could to try and help you in response to your question. Any and all thanks and glory truly go to God who took this wretched man and uses him for His purposes and His glory. I truly am a wretched man, and like all pastors I know, I know what I am and I'm amazed that God can use me. But as I've said publicly in my testimony, God is in the business of taking all of us Jacobs and forming us into Israels. May God continue to bless you as you seek to draw closer to Him in the intimate and passionate relationship that He has with you.

 

[BABBAB58]

There has not been a time in the Word that I have not been blessed. I appreciate this study into God's word, and I hope that we can carry it forward in understanding how each of us, not just you and I, come to the Word. I am not one who enjoys arguments, so if this subject is too controversial or causes a confrontational spirit; I will submit to the Forum's rule of not writing something that would be divisive in the future, please remove.

How to share what I want without appearing to write a novel, because we are busy people. I kept it to the dissecting and defining of three words. It is still quite lengthy.
I color coded to aid the reader. For anyone not familiar with Strong's Lexicon, or actually Thayer's Greek Lexicon; each word in the Holy Bible is given a number i. e. #3466 for Mystery. Below there is a section that is an advancing definition, of a sort. I scan through these until I find the verse of interest, then return to the top of that section and begin following down gathering more meaning of the purpose of how that word was used. I coded all of these steps in Green. The verse or verses are coded in Red. The rest is black by default. If I understood Hebrew or Greek, life would be easier, but this is the only way I know how to know the intended meaning. COPY & PASTE UNDID IT ALL. So sorry.

1 Corinthians 14: 1-4 YLT, Paul speaking with the Gentiles: Pursue the love, and seek earnestly the spiritual things, and rather that ye may prophecy, 2for he who is speaking in an [unknown] tongue — to men he doth not speak, but to God, for no one doth hearken, and in spirit he doth speak secrets; 3and he who is prophesying to men doth speak edification, and exhortation, and comfort; 4he who is speaking in an [unknown] tongue, himself doth edify, and he who is prophesying, an assembly doth edify;

mustérion: Mystery Strong's Lexicon #3466

1. a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding: 1 Corinthians 13:2; 1 Corinthians 14:2; (of the secret rites of the Gentiles, Wis. 14:15, 23).

[μυστήριον, μυστηρίου, τό (μύστης (one initiated; from μυέω, which see)), in classical Greek a hidden thing, secret, mystery: μυστήριον σου μή κατειπης τῷ φιλῶ, Menander; plural generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to be communicated by them to ordinary mortals; (cf. K. F. Hermann, 23).


glossa: Tongue, Language Strong's Lexicon #1100

2. a tongue, i. e. the language used by a particular people in distinction from that of other nations:

“...1 Corinthians 12:10; cf. also B. D. under the word Tongues, Gift of). From both these expressions must be carefully distinguished the simple phrases λαλεῖν γλώσσαις, γλώσσαις λαλεῖν, λαλεῖν γλώσσῃ, γλώσσῃ λαλεῖν (and προσεύχεσθαι γλώσσῃ, 1 Corinthians 14:14), to speak with (in) a tongue (the organ of speech), to speak with tongues; this, as appears from 1 Corinthians 14:7ff, is the gift of men who, rapt in an ecstasy and no longer quite masters of their own reason and consciousness, pour forth their glowing spiritual emotions in strange utterances, rugged, dark, disconnected, quite unfitted to instruct or to influence the minds of others: Acts 10:46; Acts 19:6; 1 Corinthians 12:30; 1 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4-6, 13, 18, 23, 27, 39. The origin of the expression is apparently to be found in the fact, that in Hebrew the tongue is spoken of as the leading instrument by which the praises of God are proclaimed ...”

laleó: To speak, to talk, to utter Strong's Lexicon #2980

2. to speak, i. e. to use the tongue or the faculty of speech; to utter articulate sounds: absolutely 1 Corinthians 14:11

3. to talk; of the sound and outward form of speech: τῇ ἰδίᾳ διαλέκτῳ, Acts 2:6; ἑτέραις καιναῖς γλώσσαις, Acts 2:4; Mark 16:17 (here Tr text WH text omit καιναῖς), from which the simple γλώσσαις λαλεῖν, and the like, are to be distinguished, see γλῶσσα, 2.

5. “to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts; to speak: absolutely, ἔτι αὐτοῦ λαλοῦντος, Matthew 12:46; Matthew 17:5; Matthew 26:47; Mark 5:35; Mark 14:43; Luke 8:49; Luke 22:47, 60; with the adverbs κακῶς, καλῶς, John 18:23; ὡς νήπιος ἐλάλουν, 1 Corinthians 13:11; ὡς δράκων, Revelation 13:11; στόμα πρός στόμα, face to face (German mündlich), 2 John 1:12 (after the Hebrew of Numbers 12:8); εἰς ἀέρα λαλεῖν, 1 Corinthians 14:9; ἐκ τοῦ περισσεύματος τῆς καρδίας τό στωμα λαλεῖ, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh, namely, so that it expresses the soul's thoughts, Matthew 12:34; Luke 6:45; ἐκ τῶν ἰδίων λαλεῖν, to utter words in accordance with one's inner character, John 8:44. with the accusative of the thing: τί λαλήσω, λαλήσητε, etc., what I shall utter in speech, etc., John 12:50; Matthew 10:19; Mark 9:6 (here T Tr WH ἀποκριθῇ); ; τί, anything, Mark 11:23 L T Tr text WH; Romans 15:18; 1 Thessalonians 1:8; οὐκ οἴδαμεν τί λαλεῖ, what he says, i. e. what the words uttered by him mean (WH brackets τί λαλεῖ), John 16:18; ταῦτα, these words, Luke 24:36; John 8:30; John 17:1, 13; 1 Corinthians 9:8; τό λαλούμενον, 1 Corinthians 14:9; plural Acts 16:14 (of the words of a teacher); τόν λόγον λαλούμενον, Mark 5:36 (see Buttmann, 302 (259) note); λόγους, 1 Corinthians 14:19; ῤήματα, John 8:20; Acts 10:44; παραβολήν, Matthew 13:33; βλασφημίας, Mark 2:7 (L T Tr WH βλασφημεῖ); Luke 5:21; ῤήματα βλάσφημα εἰς τινα, Acts 6:11; ῤήματα (Rec. adds βλάσφημα) κατά τίνος, Acts 6:13; σκληρά κατά τίνος, Jude 1:15; ὑπέρογκα, Jude 1:16 (Dan. (Theod.) ); τά μή δέοντα, 1 Timothy 5:13 (ἅ μή θέμις, 2 Macc. 12:14; εἰς τινα τά μή καθήκοντα, 3Macc. 4:16; (cf. Winer's Grammar, 480 (448))); διεστραμμένα, Acts 20:30; τό ψεῦδος, John 8:44; δόλον, 1 Peter 3:10 from Psalm 33:14 (); ἀγαθά, Matthew 12:31; σοφίαν, 1 Corinthians 2:6f; μυστήρια; 1 Corinthians 14:2; followed by ὅτι (equivalent to περί τούτου, ὅτι etc. to speak of this, viz. that they knew him (see ὅτι, I. 2 under the end)), Mark 1:34; Luke 4:41; contrary to classic usage, followed by direct discourse, Mark 14:31 L text T Tr WH; Hebrews 5:5; Hebrews 11:18, (but in these last two passages of the utterances of God); more correctly elsewhere ἐλάλησε λέγων (in imitation of Hebrew לֵאמֹר יְדַבֵּר (cf. above (at the beginning))), followed by direct discourse: Matthew 14:27; Matthew 23:1; Matthew 28:18; John 8:12; Acts 8:26; Acts 26:31; Acts 28:25; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 21:9; λαλοῦσα καί λέγουσα, Revelation 10:8. λαλῶ with the dative of person to speak to one, address him (especially of teachers): Matthew 12:46; Matthew 23:1; Luke 24:6; John 9:29; John 15:22; Acts 7:38, 44; Acts 9:27; Acts 16:13; Acts 22:9; Acts 23:9; Romans 7:1; 1 Corinthians 3:1; 1 Corinthians 14:21, 28; 1 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 1:2 (1); of one commanding, Matthew 28:18; Mark 16:19; to speak to, i. e. converse with, one (cf. Buttmann, § 133, 1): Matthew 12:46 (47 but WH marginal reading only); Luke 1:22; Luke 24:32; John 4:26; John 12:29; ἑαυτοῖς (the dative of person) ψαλμοῖς καί ὕμνοις (dative of instrument), Ephesians 5:19; οὐ λαλεῖν τίνι is used of one who does not answer, John 19:10; to accost one, Matthew 14:27; λαλῶ τί τίνι, to speak anything to anyone, to speak to one about a thing (of teaching): Matthew 9:18; John 8:25 (on which see ἀρχή, 1 b.); ; 2 Corinthians 7:14; ῤήματα, John 6:63; John 14:10; Acts 13:42; οἰκοδομήν καί παράκλησιν, things which tend to edify and comfort the soul, 1 Corinthians 14:3; of one promulgating a thing to one, τόν νόμον, passive Hebrews 9:19; λαλῶ πρός τινα, to speak unto one: Luke 1:19; ( L marginal reading T WH); Acts 4:1; Acts 8:26; Acts 9:29; Acts 21:39; Acts 26:14 (R G), 26, 31; Hebrews 5:5 (אֶל דִּבֵּר, Genesis 27:6; Exodus 30:11, 17, 22); λόγους πρός τινα, Luke 24:44; ἐλάλησαν πρός αὐτούςἀυαγγελιζόμενοι ... Ἰησοῦν, Acts 11:20; ὅσα ἄν λαλήσῃ πρός ὑμᾶς, Acts 3:22; σοφίαν ἐν τισίν, wisdom among etc. 1 Corinthians 2:6; λαλεῖν μετά τίνος, to speak, converse, with one (cf. Buttmann, § 133, 3): Mark 6:50; John 4:27; John 9:37; John 14:30; Revelation 1:12; Revelation 10:8; Revelation 17:1; Revelation 21:9, 15; λαλεῖν ἀλήθειαν μετά etc. to show oneself a lover of truth in conversation with others, Ephesians 4:25 (cf. Ellicott); λαλεῖν περί τίνος, concerning a person or thing: Luke 2:33; Luke 9:11; John 7:13; John 8:26; John 12:41; Acts 2:31; Hebrews 2:5; Hebrews 4:8; with τίνι, dative of person, added, Luke 2:38; Acts 22:10; τί περί τίνος, Acts 28:21; Luke 2:17; εἰς τινα περί τίνος (the genitive of the thing), to speak something as respects a person concerning a thing, Hebrews 7:14 R G; εἰς τινα περί with the genitive of person, ibid. L T Tr WH. Many of the examples already cited show that λαλεῖν is frequently used in the N. T. of teachers, — of Jesus, the apostles, and others. To those passages may be added, Luke 5:4; John 1:37; John 7:46; John 8:30, 38; John 12:50; Acts 6:10; Acts 11:15; Acts 14:1, 9; Acts 16:14; 1 Corinthians 14:34; ...”

 

[mattfivefour]

@BABBAB58, yes that it is a fairly complete overview of the denotations of the three words. Thank you. But since connotation is derived from context and, as the Holy Spirit advises us through Paul, the letter (Greek γράμμα - gramma, - literally referring to individual written characters or to them as a whole in any document) kills but the Spirit gives life, how do you draw from those definitions relevance to the verses in 1 Corinthians 14 and elsewhere? This is where exegesis becomes fascinating and, ultimately, useful as we work to understand what God wants us to know.

 

[BABBAB58]

Connotations are used in society and are continually changing. I read above that you are blessed with 81 year - so far!

I grew up in SW Ohio. My parent's church was filled with Southerners, and so we had a Southern preacher. Good man who enjoyed the spoiling of good Southern cooking more than he might should have done. He passed away from a heart attack, I think in his fifties. Times were changing, and new information was circulating throughout the country. The Church wanted a properly educated man to replace the Spirit called man. After several candidates, they allowed a man from Canada to preach as his credentials were impressive. His speech was free from our colloquial additives. Everyone agreed, and he was hired. He and his family settled. One Sunday, maybe three months after his arrival, he announced to the congregation that he had something to tell us. He was visibly irritated. He said that he didn't think we were using a word purposely to offend him, but he just could not continue without telling us about it. We were all ears. "Piddle" means to a Southerner "tinkering around with something to pass the time". We used it often when asked if we were busy. No, we would say, just piddling. What's up? Unbeknownst to us, piddle had the connotation of what one does in the bedroom between married folk.

How about I trade "connotation" for my "understanding"?
Paul was tasked, by Jesus, to teach peoples who were generally ignorant of the Old Covenant, the Law, then explain how the Law was the foreshadowing of the New Covenant, and Jesus's Good News? The man had patience!! How do you meet and teach people who could care less about the Jew's God? They had plenty already. With the Spirit's guidance Paul met people where they were - spiritually. In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is addressing the practice of secret societies, "enlightenment" from their gods given to the few to declare over others. The others were told that they were not worthy. It is why the Word makes clear that it was written by the Holy Spirit guiding man's hand and there is not any hidden understanding outside of the Word. We all have the same Word.
The Gentiles with this notoriety of getting special information from their gods, would make strange utterances and flail about like madmen. I wasn't there - not that old. Historian's information.
This practice was what Paul used to explain to them how futile their actions were, and how better the true Spirit of God's gifts were; a sure gift that was useful to share the Blessed Hope of Salvation with others whose language was not the same as theirs. The mystery held until the proper time. The goodness of our Creator to correct forevermore what was destroyed in the Garden of Eden by making the ultimate sacrifice of sending His Word, God the Son, to bear all sin. The mystery is solved for the Gentiles. The mystery is still a mystery, in part, to the Jewish Nation for God's pleasure and love toward the Gentiles; however, there is a time fast approaching where the mystery will be revealed to the Wife - not Bride - of Christ Jesus. God's love and commitment to Zion
hasn't wavered.

 

[BABBAB58]

@BABBAB58, yes that it is a fairly complete overview of the denotations of the three words. Thank you. But since connotation is derived from context and, as the Holy Spirit advises us through Paul, the letter (Greek γράμμα - gramma, - literally referring to individual written characters or to them as a whole in any document) kills but the Spirit gives life, how do you draw from those definitions relevance to the verses in 1 Corinthians 14 and elsewhere? This is where exegesis becomes fascinating and, ultimately, useful as we work to understand what God wants us to know.

If you were the one that made some semblance of my pot of spaghetti that I left above - THANK YOU! If not, THANK YOU, TOO!

 

[TrustandFaith]

I'm in my 81st year of life, please don't ask me to recall much! It really is a blur, even many of the wonderful things of God. But I do recall many of the blessings that God has worked in my life, some of which were nothing short of actual miracles. And there have been so many in other people's lives with which I have been blessed to interact. In my life I can recall two significant healings I've received, a prophecy made over me that has come to pass, and a prophecy I gave in a Canadian Assemblies of God church back in 2007 that has been coming to pass for many years. But I cannot remember every instance of tongues, either given or interpreted. The things I have remembered I have shared over the past decade and a half online. But sadly the actual details of those things I have largely forgotten are gone from my mind. However, since they were done by the grace and the power of God and for His glory, I am convinced they still redound to the glory of God in the heavenlies.

I can tell you this: before I became an ordained minister and spoke regularly from pulpits, I never jumped at a chance to speak publicly in church. Whenever I felt the urge to speak a word of encouragement, or correction, or prophecy, or to deliver a message in tongues, I held back. To stand up and say "Thus saith the Lord!" is a fearsome thing!!! The Lord God had better have said it. So it was always with fear that I spoke openly in church. And I can tell you as a pastor while the fear is not the same trembling fear I felt before, I have a deep and holy sense of the awesome responsibility I carry when I preach or teach. And I constantly check what I say not only with God's Word but also with His Spirit. And I can tell you that there have been times I've spent a lot of effort putting a message together to deliver, only to be told no. So I have erased it and humbly begun again. Most importantly I've learned this lesson: before you preach something to others preach it first to yourself.

I do not like writing about myself because it always seems to me to be self-serving, even though I don't intend it that way. There is no thanks or glory intended to myself in any of what I've written above. However, I did want to share what I could to try and help you in response to your question. Any and all thanks and glory truly go to God who took this wretched man and uses him for His purposes and His glory. I truly am a wretched man, and like all pastors I know, I know what I am and I'm amazed that God can use me. But as I've said publicly in my testimony, God is in the business of taking all of us Jacobs and forming us into Israels. May God continue to bless you as you seek to draw closer to Him in the intimate and passionate relationship that He has with you.

Thank you @mattfivefour for your heartfelt reply. I admire your humility. Though not quite so advanced in years I too have a problem with recall and have prayed about it. I believe the Lord has answered my prayer on many occasions through the prompting of the Holy Spirit as and when needed. Apparently if I had total recall of all I’d read, seen and heard I’d be unbearable! An insufferable know it all and what good would that be to man or beast!

I used to be very shy growing up, blushing before I’d even opened my mouth but my confidence has improved, certainly since coming to faith. We now teach small informal groups at our local Church where I feel comfortable. While my husband prefers to work with a script, I prefer prompts and then as I call it “cuff it”, always after prayer. It feels more natural for me but I appreciate we’re all different and must be sensitive and true to our audience. I hope that in our minor roles we’re not held to higher account!

Re spiritual gifts, I’ve enjoyed discussion here and have decided to organise a session for our ladies group in the run up to Christmas focussing on 1 Corinthians 12-14.